However, end game is where a lot of the balancing is done. If the end game is not correctly balanced than early and middle won't be very well balanced either.

True. They both should be viable. What Eric and I have been repeating, however, is that they should not be equal. An Orsimer mage should NEVER be able to match a Breton mage because Bretons are innately superior to Orcs when it comes to magic. In the same vein, a Breton sword-and-board should NEVER be able to match an Orsimer sword-and-board because Orsimer are superior to Bretons when it comes to magic. That's why I suggested that the level cap be raised for race-specific skills (or, in Eric's idea, the level cap be lowered for non-race specific skills). In this way, you'll feel more powerful playing a racial archetype (Breton Mage, Orc warrior, etc) but you'll still be able to play races outside of their comfort zones (Redguard Mage, Orsimer Mage, Breton Warrior, etc).

Because an rpg without choices would be....terrible......and I like my argonian dual wielding heavy armor wearing master alchemist master archer . >_< ALTHOUGH, it is kinda breaking with the lore to have my argonian suddenly be able to be poisoned and be able to catch diseases.

crap gettin fire from two sides

Otheral The mechanics for learning any skill is the same for any race any skill.So if my orc shaman has some catching up to do to more magically inclined races so be it.What I am not understanding is why you wish to put another obstacle in the way of an non optimal build.

Darkside Eric I do not believe that to be the case at all.I believe Skyrim is fairly well balanced(not perfect by any stretch) in all three phases

P.S. I am not entirely sure how to multiquote and dun want the guy from earlier to yell at me

Final Fantasy XI and Dungeons & Dragons are great examples of what myself and FPSFrame have been saying.

In Final Fantasy XI it was entirely possible to make a Galka Black or White Mage.

But you would never be able to match the magical prowess of a Tarutaru, because Tarautaru, as a race, are magickal while Galka, as a race, are physical.


I made a Dark Elf Spellsword and a High Elf Mage. In early levels the only real difference was that the High Elf had more magicka, because I could, with either spell or melee, take down enemies in roughly the same amount of time. Fights weren't any harder as a Spellsword than they were as a Mage. Adding to that, going full Assassin kills (no pun) the difficulty of the game, no matter what race you play as.

It's not about caring how others play, it's about how the game plays period. The game should recognize what you do and don't do. It should recognize the choices you've made, and give appropriate consequences. Some of those consequences will result in lost opportunities for a given character, but that's the "price" for having a believable world. It's very jarring when the game allows a character to do something they shouldn't logically be able to do (eg, becoming the Archmage while knowing crap-all about magic), which results in the game being less fulfilling.

It doesn't need to be artifical restrictions (eg, you joined the Companions, now you can't join the College!), but rational consequences (eg, you specced heavily into warrior skills/perks for the Companions and neglected your magic abilities, so now you can't advance far in the College because you can't focus on magic skills/perks). Trying to do more with a given character will then require careful planning, making the player properly balance their skills/perks and decide what quests to take on based on what they want to do. You don't have to plan a character to play and have fun (just start doing what you want, and the game will respond appropriately -- it never tells you that you made an "unplayable" character even if some options are lost), while those that do like planning out their characters can do so and get appropriate benefits for their forethought (at the cost of possibly messing up, making them start over or change their gameplan on the fly).

This is exactly what I'm aiming for. The arbitrary restrictions I suggested were more for lore reasons (would Companions really accept a mage, even though he could accomplish everything they ask for? Probably not) rather than logical ones. However, what you're suggesting about skills and what Eric and I have been saying about perks and skill caps is the same: we need to make skills more impactful, and make racial traits affect skill loadouts more. If skills have more impact on the world, and if racial traits affect skill loadouts more, then you can shape more believable stories for your character. What's a more satisfying tale to play through and tell:

1. An Orsimer who focused primarily on mage skills, and therefore became a great mage because he constantly leveled up his mage skills, therefore negating the fact that his race has bonus skill points in combat disciplines.

OR

2. An Orsimer who, despite his initial racial disadvantages towards magic, eventually came to be a great Orsimer mage. Sure, he'll never be as good as a Breton or a High Elf, but he can rough it up with the best of them, and that's what counts.

If you said the first one, then I'm not so sure that roleplaying is your style.

My biggest disappointment of the game. Looks and special ability is the only difference between races. Why even have different starting stats?

That could very well be the case.

It makes sense if one race is more adept with the physical arts, and one race more in tune with Aetherius should be better at magic such as the Bretons and Altmer.

So we are in agreement that all races should be viable but have a more in tune science of what their race excels at naturally.
I fire when it comes to options or the horrendous magic system. No harm no foul.

It should be a slower progression yes.

Obstacles are fun to overcome and to be fair this game lacks any real obstacle.

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but in future TES games it might be cool to see a small quest chain exclusive to each race. I wouldn't suggest they put a ton of time and effort into this, because essentially, it's 10 quest chains worth of effort, and the average gamer is probably only going to access one or two of those chains. But it would be cool to be playing an Orc and stumbling upon an Orcish encampment and have a quest chain open up called "Bloodlines" where you trace back your ancestry within the Orc clan or something. And the ultimate reward could be access to a new racial ability, or an item of significance to that particular race. Just throwing ideas out there. Playing as an Argonian in Skyrim it would have been great to see some quests with references to the Black Marsh.

I'd like something similar to the Dragon Age: Origins starting quests - each race plays through a different one. Although, that would tie down the player's imagination more, it might make for a more realistic and immersive experience. Your idea - each race can stumble upon a race-specific quest line - would fit more with TES gameplay and I think would be a nice addition to the series.

I would most certainly like to see a mission unique to your race, but I would not like it to trace your lineage or background in any way. You should design that based on how you roleplay your character.

A quest for an orcish camp could be you find the bones of the orcish shaman to end a curse that has plagued the camp with famine because of a blood pact established long ago that their chief betrayed when he fled from a giant attack and it angered Malacath. So the elder shamans bones must be returned from a sacred place protected by ancient magics that would end the suffering of their encampment. Something like that maybe, but not based off of your origins.

The reason why they don't implement that is because it would be locking players out of content. I don't know about you but I want to be able to pursue whatever content I please, and not have restrictions imposed upon that. Besides, it's better that if you don't use magic, don't join the College. You can limit content yourself by roleplaying. Use your imagination. But don't force those limits onto other players.

I personally enjoyed doing the Mage's College with a melee character, and I actually believe it makes perfect sense for my character to be Archmage. And from a roleplaying perspective, I looked at the college as a chance to learn more about the small amount of magic I already possessed. And then what happened after that just spiraled out of control, and fate decided I was to be the Archmage. I think Skyrim's approach to this type of content is great.

It's good that you think that, but restrictions actually add to a game, contrary to what it may seem. Not allowing me to join the College because I'm not mage-oriented makes me feel more immersed in the game, because it makes the world more real. If I can do everything and explore everything, why make a new character? Why not just max-out my current character and call it a day? Sometimes there is such a thing as too much freedom, and that is what Skyrim gives us. If they would just give us a more grounded experience - one that makes more sense and has more reality to it, then people would actually have more fun because their character would actually be shaped in a way that affects the storyline.

Holy crap now am surrounded.

Darkside Eric.I conceded that balance was not perfect.The assassin build is very ..lets say effective.Early game for an orc mage would be a little more challenging than for an Altmer mage.At the high end tho they should be equal.

Huleed When you do the college quests is your char a mage or do you do all things one char?Either way the game works for your playstyle.

I was never a fan of arbitrary you must be this tall bench marks in TES games.
In Morrowind having all 89s in your magic skills was not good enough to be archmage but having one at 90 and two at 75,iirc, the rest could be zero for all the game cared was.Of those two who is a better choice for Archmage.

I absolutely hated grinding a skill just to move the story along only to find out my magic was to weak to....collect dues.
If they institute roadblocks or benchmarks in future games I would much rather it be part of the storyline not outside it.



.

I agree (yet again lol).

Because we aren't limited I have to go ahead and limit myself as a player with my current character. I'm currently a level 33ish Dark Elf full Assassin, finished out the Brotherhood and am on my way to finishing out the Thieves' Guild. After that... I don't want to do the Companions or College because it's not indicative of the character. I may not even do the main quest because the main quest is quite noble and a Dark Elf Assassin is well... not. However I may have to do some of the main quest so I can open up the tension between Imperial and Stormcloak so I can then play a Chaotic Evil role and join both, killing members of each how I see fit.


Unfortunately in Skyrim those benchmarks you mention are either too low or completely negligible. For example:

The two characters I created that I sent to the College were both required to cast Fear successfully to enter the College. One was a Dark Elf Battlemage, the other a High Elf Mage. Having such a simple requirement for two different classes that are two different races somewhat lowers the scope of the College in my eyes as a player.

After entering the College both characters did the Ward demonstration which again... why is my Battlemage having to show prowess with Wards when I am building them to be melee/destruction?

Things like that pull me out of the story because it now becomes something I want to simply fast forward through. Take the opening cut scene and escape through Helgen. Having made four characters (and I plan to probably make more), the entire first stretch of the game is a fast forward because I've done it already. A sandbox RPG like Skyrim shouldn't feel like this.

Well, rather than having arbitrary "You must be this tall to ride" benchmarks for your character, why not incorporate skill use into the difficulty of quests. For example, the College quests barely need any magic to complete at all (beyond the initial "cast this for me so I know you know magic" spell). If college quests required spells to complete (for example, have a dungeon where the enemies are spirits who cannot be harmed by arrows or melee weapons, only magic), then that creates a natural barrier for the player. It's not that you "are too short to ride". It's merely that "You are tall enough to ride, but can you withstand riding it without having a heart attack"?

I disagree, you had to have your skills a certain level to advance in the faction you had to be proficient in a skill to advance just like you have to master your trade in reasle life that was the point in Morrowinds system. It added depth and it was far more immersive.

Also on magic see this http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Magic to see what races should slightly be in more tune with magic and get a basic idea of why.

Great. That works for you. That's what's great about Skyrim, if you don't want to join the Companions or the College for roleplaying reasons, you don't have to. It's your choice. But there's no point in locking that content away from people who want to pursue it.

Like I said, I played a melee character, and I easily justified joining the College by the following. For one, every character starts out with basic magic. I wanted to learn more about this basic magic, so I joined the college (even though I was a melee-centric tank for the most part). Doesn't mean I can't learn about magic. I started as a student (very immersive), and before you know it, a crazy turn of events happened. The whole time I was completely immersed in the progression of the quests themselves. I felt like it all just felt "right". And it would have svcked if I wasn't able to join simply because I wasn't a primary magic user. After all, I'm the freaking Dragonborn, I'm special. I should be able to join any group I see fit.

And with the way the actual quests are written, it wouldn't have made sense to make arbitrary skill levels the sole basis of your advancement. Actions speak louder than words, and you were performing so important actions, therefore you advanced. Doesn't mean you need to be the end-all-be-all magic user, it just means you showed a lot of courage, a lot of initiative, and in the end you get rewarded for that.

You guys are assuming that people will play the game multiple times through. A lot of players just play once and what to see everything they can possibly see.

One question no one has answered yet...

Why can't we kill our way to the top in guilds?

Don't mind me... I've been reading D&D Drow books lately and so I'm becoming somewhat inspired by it.


I think this is actually part of the problem and why there should be racial starting quests or choosing a backstory instead of the exact same intro for everyone.

And on the locking content away portion, locking it away gives those players who do just play once an incentive to play again.

Depends on the Guild. If we're talking Companions... No one would obey you because they all respect Kodlak. If we're talking College, then no one would respect you because you're abusing magic. Thieves it might work, if everyone fears you, and Dark Brotherhood it's kinda fitting with their whole assassins theme. Kinda breaks lore for Companions and College, so I wouldn't want it. Sounds fun if you fit it to the right faction, though.

I loved the murderous nature of House Telvenni. They was ruthless yet highly intelligent and insightful magister lords. Got to love them, they are the best faction in all of The Elder Scrolls.

Although, I think it might be interesting if you killed your way to the top if no one knew of it.

If for some reason Kodlak took an arrow to the knee... and then one to the spine after they had sent you on a quest.

Or even better... if you could hire people to attack others so you could have the alibi of sitting with everyone when the target died... >)

It's not about limiting content, it's about making content make sense. Limiting content is just a side-effect of that. If my magic skills are low and I'm playing, say, and Orc, the College should laugh in my face. I then practice magic a bit on my own to get better, go back to the College, and give them a serving of Humble Pie as they begrudgingly accept me. Or I hold a grudge as I turn to self-learned Necromancy and witchcraft, and attempt to wipe out the College for refusing me.

The game imposing meaningful limits provides for more roleplay opportunities, which the game can then respond to. If I just pretend "well, my magic skill's low, and I think the College shouldn't accept me, so I'll just ignore it," the game will not recognize that at all. The game will just recognize that I'm not part of the College and continually attempt to get me to go there, while in no way legitimize how the College wouldn't accept me because I wasn't good enough.

Use your imagination for your character's story, not to gloss over gameplay faults.

Maybe in a cut throat way to reach the Listener position inside of the Dark Brotherhood. That might be interesting, I wonder if it would anger Sithis? Its a thought maybe you could deal with a punishment from him on some level, I would love to see that.