Why does everyone dread the Thalmor so much?

Post » Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:53 pm

I recently started playing Skyrim again with a new character after a long break, so I've been reading this and some other boards again.

My long winded point here being that there is in game historical sites of the Thalmor losing or failing to achieve their goals. They're not some unstoppable force that cannot be beaten. lets just assume the Dominion decides to invade Skyrim, do you think the nords will go quite like? What of the Dunmer, yes Morrowind is not what it was but do you think the Dunmer would ever bow to the Altmer? Or the Argonians? Do you really think they'd let the Dominion come into Black marsh? The Orcs, Hammerfells and the Reguards the list goes on and on with plenty of reasons why the Thalmor aren't as big and bad as they might seem.
These losses have taught them that they can't win by force. Particularly against the human races skilled in warrior melee styled combat like the Redguards and Nords (Remember the Aldmeri's racial attribute is the school of Illusion). So as a race, the Aldmeri are skilled master illusionists and naturally prefer magical combat to wielding arms in battle .

More specifically, their historic loss record against the human race in major conflicts has svcked :

1. They lost the Skyrim province in the Battle of Moesring Mountain with the fall of the Snow Prince to Ysgramor and his 500 companions.
2. They lost the Cyrodil province and the mighty Ayelid empire in the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ayleid to a mere mortal: Queen Alessia aka the 1st Dovahkin. (granted, the Aldmeri were victims of racial discrimination after being royally screwed over by Akatosh in that particular conflict).
3. They failed in their attempt to retake the Cyrodil province and reclaim the White Gold Tower in the Battle of Red Ring

From these major conflicts, the Aldmeri are 0/ 3. This doesn't include their consistent attempts at civil war and racial suicide, which made it easier for humans to conquer Tamriel like:

-A large sect of the Aldmeri, led by demi-god Trinimac, pissing off their Summerset Isle kinsmen by choosing to become heretic http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Chimer
-The heretic Chimer, led again by vainglorious Trinimac, pissing off a Deadric Prince and becomming cursed as Orsimer
-The remaining heretic Chimer emigrated Summerset Isle for Morrowind; where they soon began to piss of their Dwemer kinsmen.
-Both Morrowind Aldmeri groups pissing off each other a joint attempt to annilate themselves in a civil war
-Then the Morrowind Dwemer, thanks to the vainglorious Kagrenac, managed to piss off fate itself---and successfully anhilated themselves from all known mortal existence.
-Then the Morrowind Chimer led by the vainglorious Tribunal, pissing off yet another Daedric Prince and being cursed as Dunmer

These conflicts greatly divided and weakend the Elven race in Tamriel. The remaining Aldmeri have realized they'll NEVER be succesful in a direct assault against humans--especially given their lack of numbers. History has taught them they svck at open combat warfare, and so have resorted to a strategic divide and conquer strategy instead. :biggrin:
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Dalia
 
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Post » Mon Jun 04, 2012 6:41 am

What I found interesting is that:

Spoiler
Elisilf has you place the horn of Torygg at a particular shrine of Talos in the middle of Skyrim, even though Talos worship is forbidden. She wanted someone she could trust -- right: after you killed the emperor, the emperor's cousin (and arrested for it), and were responsible for the Thalmor Embassy massacre, and are known by the Imperial Legion all over Skyrim that you're a member of the Stormcloaks.

But I did it for her anyway because it was the right thing to do.
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Verity Hurding
 
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Post » Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:43 pm

Adding:

-While humans were focused on settling themselves across Tamriel in the Cyrodilian Empire, the Aldmeri were quietly rebuilding the 2nd Thalmor Dominion. Through suberterfuge, they svckered the Maormer, Bosmer, and Khajiit into becoming foot soldiers a.k.a cannon fodder for the Dominion.

-The Dominion's resurrection was the Aldmeri's first step in psychological warfare against the Empire. Because it quietly drove a wedge between the Empire and its provinces of Valenwood and Elsywer.

-Then the Aldmeri began the Great War with the 2nd Thalmor Dominon and failed to win it. Yet they still managed to come out smelling like roses by bullying the Emperor into giving them large chunks of Hammerfell in the White Gold Concordat. :blink:

-Then they lost the post battle to gain a strategic foothold in Hammerfell after the White Gold Concordat treaty. Yet they won the war by successfully alienating the Redgurads from the Empire. :blink:

-The Dominion grew even stronger, through the unwitting contribution of their Dunmer kinsmen in Morrowind. Thanks to centuries of slavery, the Dunmer lost BOTH provinces of Morrowind and the Black Marsh to the Argonians. :dry:

- And now, through their former bullying of the Emperor into outlawing Talos worship, the Dominon has succeded in driving a wedge between the province of Skyrim and the Empire. Notice how the Aldmeri drove a wedge between the Empire and BOTH provinces of Skyrim and Hammerfell with the single stroke of a pen in the White Gold Concordat treaty.

-The resulting civil war has greatly weakened human control in Tamriel--which is exactly how the Aldmeri desire it

Another cause for Aldmeri hearburn is their lower birth rate statistic. The Elves live longer-- but reproduce at significantly lower rates than humans. To the Aldmeri, must humans hump like skeevers and breed like rabbits! :lol:

So with the Aldmeri's knowledge they 1) svck at direct open combat and 2) they can't afford to lose mass numbers of Elves in such conflict due to lower birth rates, they've had to resort to a divide and conquer subversion strategy.

For now, they're content to sit back and pull strings and hoodwink the Empire all across Tamriel. But if it comes to open conflict (which is very likely in TES VI), then let the Bosmer/Khajiit/Maomer foot soldiers do the dirty fighting. Hell, their gilded silver tounges may even convince the Orcs and Bretons (who are half Aldmeri & half human and have a gift for being subversive as well) to join the Dominion.

This appears to be the practical way in which the Aldmeri is going about defeating humans in Tamriel. And so far, their subterfuge strategy has worked: They've succeeded in creating chaos and division between all races of Man in Tamriel. To date, the Aldmeri have been quite successful in quietly undoing the achievments humans have made in Tamriel. The Dominion is now basically exploiting the Empire's weakended state to run things across Tamriel. Have you noticed how they have the free license and jurisdiction to roam Skyrim at will without any consequences to their actions lately?
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Katharine Newton
 
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Post » Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:15 am

Because they're full of themselves. There is NOTHING i hate more in a person than a big ego
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Juanita Hernandez
 
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Post » Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:26 pm

I like the Thalmor. They're perfectly snooty. If it were possible I'd join them in severely subjugating all of the drunken, whining slobs of Tamriel.
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Steven Hardman
 
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Post » Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:39 am

I don't dread the Thalmor at all. They're effete, mincing douchebags and the fact that the Empire goes [censored]-footing around to avoid pissing them off is what makes the Empire so contemptible.
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N Only WhiTe girl
 
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Post » Mon Jun 04, 2012 6:00 am

You surely mean Why everyone hate the thalmor so much? I remember those arrogant Vivec's Guards treating you as Scum in Morrowind, and all the way through Oblivion and now, in Skyrim, they still think they are the superior race. Well, each time this Dovahkiin meets their patrols, I make sure none of them survive and liberate their prisoners. When they send their death squads to eliminate me, I make sure I kill them all with extreme hatred too. Can't wait for their next patrol to come around... :angel:
:foodndrink:
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D IV
 
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Post » Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:31 am

Or the issue could be resolved in a DLC

But it needs to be resolved and the easiest way to do that is involve the Thalmor.
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Skrapp Stephens
 
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Post » Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:16 am

You surely mean Why everyone hate the thalmor so much? I remember those arrogant Vivec's Guards treating you as Scum in Morrowind, and all the way through Oblivion and now, in Skyrim, they still think they are the superior race. Well, each time this Dovahkiin meets their patrols, I make sure none of them survive and liberate their prisoners. When they send their death squads to eliminate me, I make sure I kill them all with extreme hatred too. Can't wait for their next patrol to come around... :angel:
:foodndrink:

Q.F.T. Dread the Thalmor? Oh HELL no. View them with extreme predjudice? Ayup. Wipe the snow with their bodies, turning it blood red in the sunset? Oh YES.
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Tina Tupou
 
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Post » Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:17 pm


But it needs to be resolved and the easiest way to do that is involve the Thalmor.

Not really.
Elisef is the the only contender for the throne that is still alive no matter which side you pick.If she agrees to declare independance from the Empire the Stormcloaks could support her.The Empire trusts her so she could agree to an alliance with the Empire even after leaving the Empire.
Ulfric if alive has the spectre of a certain document hanging over his head that could be used to persuade him to relinquish his claim.
The Thalmor would be hard pressed to get a large number of troops into Skyrim never mind keep them resupplied.Unless they decide the Thalmor just magicked everything in.But the Thalmor do need a win so maybe the devs will give em this one
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Danel
 
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Post » Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:28 pm

Get Parthy, Greybeards and Dovahkiin a let them wreck the thalmor


:) 6- man team! make a mod for this if you hate those [censored] elves... Whos with me?!
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SaVino GοΜ
 
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Post » Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:47 pm

Um because they're basically the Sith of Skyrim. Cunning, ruthless, always plotting, evil world-ending grand scheme, don't give a damn about any race but their own, constantly power hungry (See: Ancano and the eye of Magnus)

Ancano is pitiful, and as for the Thalmor themselves,they are just overconfident, the "superiorty" didnt help when I blasted one with an ice storm, it just made them die quicker.
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Josh Sabatini
 
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Post » Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:57 pm

The Thalmor are just the targeted antagonists, whereas in Oblivion it was the daedra and Mehrunes Dagon. It also fits that their style of life is quite different than the average man --- longer lifespan, born with magicka abliities, and a stout composition. Makes for a formidable opponent, though they're certainly not invincible. Most of that feeling comes from the classic Altmer attitude that they're better than everyone else, which is basically their downfall because no one wants to side with such pompous jerks. This isn't to say all Altmer are like that either.

Invading Skyrim and slaying everyone? Not sure what purpose that would serve for their cause, especially since the war probably drained a lot of their strength. Sure, the Empire was obviously affected more... but no side of a war goes unscathed. Not to mention, Nords are better fighters than Altmer would technically be... but the Altmer's magical abilities would make up for it.
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jessica robson
 
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Post » Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:29 am

I don't dread the Thalmor at all. They're effete, mincing douchebags and the fact that the Empire goes [censored]-footing around to avoid pissing them off is what makes the Empire so contemptible.

Agreed....but I can think individual who claims to appose them....but is just a greedy tyrannical racist.
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kyle pinchen
 
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Post » Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:48 pm

Not to mention, Nords are better fighters than Altmer would technically be... but the Altmer's magical abilities would make up for it.

Really, is that why the combined imperial forces needed dwemer robots to conquer the Aldermeri Dominion? Not to mention, leader of the Stormcloak himself Ulfric, being subjected to being captured and interrogated by the Thalmos and being freed to help Thalmor's cause of weakening the Mede empire.
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Vahpie
 
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Post » Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:31 am

So when germany was defeated in WWI was it smart of the Allies and the Polish to assume they were beaten into oblivion and that thier spirt was crushed? Learn your history or you are doomed to repeat it, just because the thalmor have a history of causing chaos then being defeated doesnt mean you forget about the threat all together.

Very true, and from in-game dialogue with members of the Thalmor it is made clear that the Aldemri Dominion isn't just going to lie down quietly and let the Empire build back its strength. If they're smart (and there's no reason to assume they are not) then they are well aware how fragile the Empire is right now. I think they view the WGC as more of a tactical retreat then a total defeat.
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Shannon Lockwood
 
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Post » Mon Jun 04, 2012 4:36 pm

While that may be true, at most we would be talking about a few good individuals compared to the rest of the Altmer race. To use an example, yes there were Germans during WWII who knew Hitler was wrong, and the ones who knew AND tried to do something about it were few and far between. Those who did usually died (albeit as heroes). My point is is that if you have a general consensus among the masses that what your government is doing is okay (Altmer in the Dominion), then those being oppressed and warred against (humans of Tamriel) should not hold their breath on Altmer citizens protesting the actions of their government or helping them stop the Dominion. Are all Altmer evil? Certainly not. Can a few truly good Altmer make a difference? As you posted, it would appear that the Dominion has no compunction against killing their own for holding different views. Seeing as how most Altmer are arrogant and prejudiced against other races (even other elves), I really can't see that many, if any, Altmer hating the Dominion, especially if they see the Dominion as the ideal vehicle towards world domination and power and all that jazz.

I was replying to the OP who said,
it almost felt like playing as an Altmer in this game would be wrong

Many Altmer live outside the Dominion, others fled it. Theres plenty of possibilities for playing an Altmer who opposes the Dominion.
As for relatively few Germans actively opposing Hitler thats true. Very few Russians opposed Stalin actively. Very few French joined the Resistance before 1944. I believe the same would be true of any people. Most people keep their heads down, look after themselves. Doesn't mean they support or approve of whats being done. The Nazis did their best to keep things like The Final Solution secret from the German population. There were rumours and people knew Jews were being deported but no hard facts.
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maya papps
 
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Post » Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:00 pm

I only played Oblivion before playing Skyrim, but I was surprised to learn that Bethesda had actually singled out a playable race to be the big bad for their new game. Granted the Altmer in general are arrogant and condescending, but IMO it almost felt like playing as an Altmer in this game would be wrong just because of the war that happened between the Aldmeri Dominion and the Empire, and what the Thalmor are doing to the rest of Tamriel. I'm not bashing the game or the story in any way, it's an interesting turn of events, and it's definitely in-character for the Altmer race (those who know their lore). All I know for sure is that Bethesda in the next Elder Scrolls game better not sweep the whole Thalmor issue under the rug, from in-game dialogue you know the Aldmeri Dominion hasn't given up trying to defeat the Empire.
I was replying to the OP who said,


Many Altmer live outside the Dominion, others fled it. Theres plenty of possibilities for playing an Altmer who opposes the Dominion.
As for relatively few Germans actively opposing Hitler thats true. Very few Russians opposed Stalin actively. Very few French joined the Resistance before 1944. I believe the same would be true of any people. Most people keep their heads down, look after themselves. Doesn't mean they support or approve of whats being done. The Nazis did their best to keep things like The Final Solution secret from the German population. There were rumours and people knew Jews were being deported but no hard facts.

OP said that?

Anyway, I believe both my and your points are valid. Do I feel that most Altmer support, or at the very least, will allow the Aldmeri Dominion to continue doing what it has been trying to do? Yes most definitely. Could there be individual Altmer who oppose or hate, for whatever reason, the Aldmeri Dominion and what they stand for? Absolutely. So yes, as countless others have done, I could very well play as an Altmer character who opposes the Dominion for whatever reasons I'd like to come up with. Taken in this view, I would no longer feel that playing as an Altmer would be wrong. In fact, I would find it a delicious irony that the one to bring peace to Skyrim and defeat the dragons would be of the race that nearly all the Nords of Skyrim hate the most.

On a separate note, I always found it odd that Thalmor agents reacted no different to your character when you were an Altmer. Design oversight?
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Charlotte X
 
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Post » Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:50 pm

Really, is that why the combined imperial forces needed dwemer robots to conquer the Aldermeri Dominion? Not to mention, leader of the Stormcloak himself Ulfric, being subjected to being captured and interrogated by the Thalmor and being freed to help Thalmor's cause of weakening the Mede empire.

Interrogation is a loose word for torture in Thalmor terms. But if you read the dossier completely Ulfric is being uncooperative. The Mede empire was already weak, and it has outlived its usefulness. Just because a person had been a prisoner of war and tortured by the enemy does not make them an asset to the enemy. Ulfric is only an asset to the Thalmor as long as there is a stalemate between the Empire and the Stormcloaks. The fact that he's progressing into full scale war against the empire in Skyrim makes him very uncooperative. They do not want a Stormcloak victory.

Note: There are Altmer living in Windhelm who do not face the discrimination that the Dunmer face. These Altmer have chosen to adopt the Nord way of life there. Ask around. Ulfric is not the racist one bent on extermination. It is the Thalmor. Not all Altmer believe as the Thalmor.
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Gemma Archer
 
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Post » Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:45 pm


On a separate note, I always found it odd that Thalmor agents reacted no different to your character when you were an Altmer. Design oversight?

TES has always been like that. If you were a Dunmer in Morrowind, you got the same snide remarks as a Nord did....
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helen buchan
 
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Post » Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:05 am

TES has always been like that. If you were a Dunmer in Morrowind, you got the same snide remarks as a Nord did....

That's weird because didn't your race affect disposition of other NPCs depending on their race in Oblivion? I know NPCs had different greetings for your character depending on your race. In Skyrim if you play as a Nord nearly everyone calls you kinsman and treats you more warmly. Taking this into account I don't see how hard it would have been to have the Thalmor faction give a set reaction to your character if you were Altmer. It's not game-breaking or anything, but it would have been a +1 to game immersion.
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Mrs Pooh
 
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Post » Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:36 am

Interrogation is a loose word for torture in Thalmor terms. But if you read the dossier completely Ulfric is being uncooperative. The Mede empire was already weak, and it has outlived its usefulness. Just because a person had been a prisoner of war and tortured by the enemy does not make them an asset to the enemy. Ulfric is only an asset to the Thalmor as long as there is a stalemate between the Empire and the Stormcloaks. The fact that he's progressing into full scale war against the empire in Skyrim makes him very uncooperative. They do not want a Stormcloak victory.

Note: There are Altmer living in Windhelm who do not face the discrimination that the Dunmer face. These Altmer have chosen to adopt the Nord way of life there. Ask around. Ulfric is not the racist one bent on extermination. It is the Thalmor. Not all Altmer believe as the Thalmor.

Doesn't sway away from the fact that the Nord resistence or it's leader is and can be again vurnerable. Also as a Mer it benefits supporting the Thalmor right now. Because the Mer kingdom have never reached the status or wealth gained during imperial rule, compare to the what they did in the First Aldmeri Dominion.
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Lisa
 
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Post » Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:20 pm

Essentially the Nazi party of Skyrim.

I would support your claim if a Mer was ever made an emperor of Tamriel. I think a lot of people's view of opposing the Thalmors can also be seen as racism. Who knows maybe they are a superior being than Nedes?
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Sammi Jones
 
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Post » Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:17 am

That's weird because didn't your race affect disposition of other NPCs depending on their race in Oblivion? I know NPCs had different greetings for your character depending on your race. In Skyrim if you play as a Nord nearly everyone calls you kinsman and treats you more warmly. Taking this into account I don't see how hard it would have been to have the Thalmor faction give a set reaction to your character if you were Altmer. It's not game-breaking or anything, but it would have been a +1 to game immersion.

Very true. And yes, player relations in Oblivion were different. I wasn't surprised about Skyrim only being kind to Nords, though I really do resent that even though my Khajiit is everyone's Thane, all the guards are obnoxious, even going so far as to make remarks about "light fingers" and lockpicking. No, it's not game-breaking but it IS annoying.
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Marcia Renton
 
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Post » Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:54 am

On a separate note, I always found it odd that Thalmor agents reacted no different to your character when you were an Altmer. Design oversight?

I imagine that to the Thalmor, an Altmer who isn't born, bred, and raised into their tight inner-circle society isn't even considered a true Altmer. Don't they have some genocidal agenda against the high elves native to High Rock? (or am I mincing my lore again?)
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JESSE
 
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