A question that I'd like to ask the lot of you..

Any leader that resides in a seat of power should be informed about what is going on in the world. Both in the real world and in fiction. It's the only way to make proper & informed decisions when you rule over a substantial land-mass. The White-Gold Concordat was signed so that the Empire could save it's own hide, instead of very possibly losing the war against the Thalmor outright. It is heavily implied that the Empire wants nothing more than to continue The Great War, but once it has bolstered its forces and the timing is right.. Knowing that the Thalmor are the greater threat & that Skyrim by itself would more than likely stand little change against the Aldmeri Dominion.. How can any of you rightly support the Stormcloaks?

I understand the personal reasons behind the Stormcloaks motives, and I agree with most of them. But it's as if they think the Empire is just perfectly fine with the White-Gold Concordat, when the truth is that the Empire is simply "biting the bullet" for a while to save it's own hide, until it can retaliate in earnest.

Just wanted to see everyones thoughts on that.

EDIT: Was going to post this in the last thread, but it hit post limit when I hit the reply button lol.

I can see both sides. There's something to be said about taking control of a province and isolating it from outlanders outsiders. I mean, hammerfell drove out the Thalmor on their own, so I see no reason why the nords, with such a harsh landscape, couldn't do similarly.

Overall though, I support the empire in this endeavor. Though skyrim may have been saved under the leadership of the Stormcloaks, what happens after the war? If the thalmor won? It would just become a matter of time, as Thalmor lay siege to skyrim. And given the discrepancies of lifespans between nords and altmer... well, I think you get the idea.

I prefer not to be a Thalmor lapdog, thanks anyway.

I hardly see how anyone is a "lapdog" to the Thalmor. In my 140 hours of playtime I've seen begrudging tolerance out of law, and that is it. Nobody likes them, except themselves. I find more satisfaction in slaughtering Thalmor than I do Dragons. At least I know I'm fighting the real enemy.

Acquiescing for peace and a chance to rebuild your forces doesn't sound like being a lapdog to me.

Surrendering to them and allowing them to kidnap and torture innocent Nords for their beliefs doesn't seem wrong to you? The Imperials are just letting it happen because the Emperor wanted to stay Emperor. He is a coward [or was, he isn't alive anymore]. Ulfric Stormcloak is the only one who gives a damn about his country, and he is willing to fight for it.

Freedom vs Tyranny? The answer is obvious to me.

Note: This is a general argument, not directed at anyone.

The Bear of Markath is not a credible source, because it's Imperial propaganda to the highest degree. There are plenty of Reachmen living in Markarth no problem. Now, I highly doubt Ulfric came in with flowers and candy for the Reachmen, but I doubt he was as genocidal as the Imperials say he is.

The Empire is an Empire. No Empire is a good thing, as Cyrus would put it.

The Stormcloaks are racist, but cares? They aren't genocidal, so they need don't a foreign power to fix this. And one won't, because Skyrim has been under an Empire for hundreds of years. The only thing that can fix Windhelm's xenophobia is itself. Besides, the Jarls are lagrley independent. It's matters more for Whiterun, for example, if Vignar is a racist bastard. And he seems cool.

I also find Ulfric and Galmar more interesting than Tullius and Rikke. I don't like Ulfric in that "he is a friendly man" kind of way, but in a "I like him as a character" kind of way. Therefore, a Stormcloak victory seems more interesting. And Hammerfell and Skyrim teaming up would probably be badass.

And the Concordat also resulted in the Empire abandoning Hammerfell. It shows that they care more about Cyrodiil, because they are an Empire. Let everyone in Hammerfell die to protect Cyrodiil.

I used to be a believer in the righteousness of one side or the other, then I took a proverbial psychic arrow in the brain.

The entire empire is in disarray anyhow. I figure it is entirely possible either outcome aids the Aldmeri Dominion enough to engage in another Great War for Tamriel. A Stormcloak victory simply ensures Skyrim sovereignty, but that isn't to say they would oppose aiding the Empire militarily if it came down to preventing the Altmer from gaining any sort of foothold in Skyrim. You recall the Stormcloaks want no one in their ancestral homeland. If it is in their best interest to aid a former enemy against a greater common enemy they would not hesitate to do so. In this case, the Empire experiences some loss of power, but can consolidate and shorten their supply lines. They have already lost a number of other provinces for one reason or another. Skyrim isn't exactly the economic powerhouse that will drive the success of a campaign against the Altmer. Militarily it provides some strategic value of course, but all great empires fall. Perhaps it is finally time for this empire to do so as well. There's no telling what kind of military might the Altmer possess, but the combined power of the Empire and Skyrim may not be enough to hold them at bay anyway after the civil war is finished.

On the other hand, should the Imperials succeed, they waste a great amount of resources establishing themselves in Skyrim. This also stretches the supply lines thin, ultimately leading to a more politically stable but significantly weaker Empire overall. This leaves them completely vulnerable for an Altmer invasion and if the Altmer were smart they would employ a dual front, engaging the Empire where they already have a lot of troops (Skyrim) initially, all the while sending an invasion force through the southern provinces and driving into the heart of the Empire several weeks later. It allows enough time for the Empire to dedicate too many of its thinned resources to the northern front while the southern front is the real strategic spearhead of the campaign. In this case, I can easily see the Empire falling.

This is of course all based on what I perceive to be the actual military might of the Aldmeri Dominion from my in game experience. I feel a heavy Altmer presence everywhere, especially in the cities under Imperial influence. Also, the White-Gold Concordat and its history signify a significant difference in the power of each nation.

There is no right or wrong in my opinion, only what is more within your character's... well... character to follow. My Nord is a Stormcloak, my Breton is an Imperial supporter. Both have their reasons as both have a fleshed out back story that properly aligns with their factional tendencies.

Didnt hammerfell kick the thalmor out of their homeland?

Yes. After the Empire dropped them for not surrendering half their land to the Dominion.

To be honest [censored] both sides take over the empire and rule it as the dragonborn should not be a lapdog of ulfric manchild or that general guy who's name I dont know.

Stormcloaks are following Hammerfell's lead. That's basically it. Once the Empire looses Skyrim, all they really have is Cyrodiil.

Hammerfell fought for years, suffered a great deal to kick the thalmor out. And this was after the empire decimated a large chunk of the thalmor army prior to surrendering themselves.

Yes. Which is why Hammerfell and Skyrim teaming up would be useful.

When push comes to shove, Cyrodiil would ultimately use the resources from it's provinces to defend itself.

Isn't Ulfric a agent of the Thalmor anyway? Don't you find a book in the main quest that proves it?

Not in the sense that he's actually working for them, they consider him an 'agent' in that they believe his actions are furthering their goals.

He was an Agent, but eventually abandoned them. Now the Thalmor consider his victory a threat.

I haven't gotten far at all in the Civil War questline so I don't know to much about what exactly is going on but yes the Imperial Legion considers worshipping Talos as a crime but Ulfric Stormcloak discrimates against the elves inhabiting the city of Windhelm, correct? Isn't this kind of the same thing? Now I may be totally wrong on this since I'm not far into it but if I am right it seems both sides are at fault in two different but yet almost equal ways.

Side note: You guys know alot about the situation involving the Civil War. Did you learn all this through the questline or is there something maybe I can read to learn about all this? Like I previously stated, I only just joined a side in the war and haven't even done the second quest in it. I joined the Imperials but I kind of wish I knew a little bit more on the situation before making my decision. i probably would have still been oon the side of the Empire but it would have been nice to make a more calculated decision.

Stormcloaks are the right side. Empires fall and new ones rise. This Empire simply lasted for too long and after the last Dragonborn Emperor died, well that was the signal for the eventual collapse. The Stormcloaks are simply hurrying the process.

The Empire signed a treaty when both armies are tired and don't want to fight yet. All the Empire had to do was simply say "Alright, we'll sign Hammerfell over to you but you get the [censored] off our land until we both gain our strength."

All the Thalmor had was the advancing army and the reserves. The advancing army was decimated along with the two Legions in the Battle of Red Ring. However, the Empire does still have a few reserves along with the many legal guilds of the Empire. They could've easily been drafted by the Empire to fight the Thalmor. Only the Elves wants the Thalmor to win and even then, many of the Elves are loyal to the Empire.

If Stormcloaks win, they can easily defend Skyrim. They're at guerrilla warfare heaven. Caves to ambush and store weapons, blizzards to move undercover, and not to mention that the entire province of Skyrim will raise arms. Whether Stormcloaks win or Empire wins, that outcome will be the same. However, what tips the balance towards Stormcloaks is the first paragraph of my post.

The Empire is a dying nation. If they overcome Thalmor, what next? The people of Tamriel REALLY seemed to have had it bad after Martin died. What? Another war? Another rebellion? Just cut its head off already and restart. I don't believe that Stormcloak government will last forever. They will be destroyed again and then again, and then again.

It's simple. As time goes on, the noble purpose of any nation becomes clouded with evil people trying to control the nation through money or status. That causes corruption and then the whole thing just falls apart after a given time.

I remember some of it now. They don't want either side to win for as long as they are divided and still fighting, the Thalmor can swoop in and finish both off.

I like reading these debates because I havnt chosen a side yet in my game.

The only good thing going for the Stormcloak cause (and not their motives) is that maybe Talos is an essential part for keeping together the material plan, and maybe not worshiping him on a massive scale (because apparently the small Talos cults aren't enough) would cause him to not be as much as a god can cease to exist in a world where all gods hold at least a portion of each others' aspect, and that would essentially cause the Thalmor religious organization's ultimate plan to conclude with the complete and utter eradication of humanity or the very possibility of humanity existing within any universe.

On the other hand, TES Lore is insane, so the only sane option is to support the Legion and Empire.

Not really, considering Ulfric hasn't been killing them like the Empire allows the Thalmor to do the Talos worshipers.

Thing is.. That's how religion works in D&D / Forgotten Realms... Which has nothing to do with TES universe.

Actually that's exactly how it works in TES.

Gods are shaped by beliefs. This is also why akatosh is so schitzophrenic and both tries to destroy and save humanity. Because the empire believes him to be a good diety that protects mankind and the elves believe him to be their champion who will destroy mankind and the nords believe he will destroy the world.

This is also why you're able to become sheogorath, and why talos was able to ascend in the first place. You can become a god in TES by acting like that god until people believe you really are that god.