you should probably have a bit of self-reflection time. What is this really about, eh? I think we both know it isn't the game, my friend.

While I know what you are trying to say, this is not the best way to say it.

Yuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuup.

Usually the complaints are by WoW players who say "Dude my toon DPSed the hell out of that mob" while playing Skyrim.

Former WoW player here, and it's so annoying.

I fundamentally agree. However, min/maxing is a type of entertaining gameplay in and of itself.

You are right and I am a little ashamed of my behavior. Just a little, though.

Most of those people use exploits/play on easy.

Min/max...yuck, especially for RPers, but balance is fundamental. Without any balance the game would be a mess. So the extremist view of absolutely no need for balance of any kind, is flawed. Balance for going out f your way to exploit, or "game" the system, isn't. Although all mechanics should ideally work as intended, and have some sort of balance.

I find it is quite the opposite. They play on the hardest difficulty setting possible, and see the experience as an accomplishment more so than entertainment.

It's silly, no TES game is remotely balanced. Remember the Amulet of Shadows in Morrowind? Getting all decked out in spell reflect, chameleon, whatever gear in Oblivion? I'm not sure you could with a world this size and scope, pretty obvious if yous top and think about it that you will have to make part of the effort to "balance" it yourself by playstyle.

ON the other hand, i don't doubt there will be something like OOO for Skyrim that will be an improvement on vanilla, which makes me kind of sad I bought the Xbox version:(

Seriously though, don't play like an Uber nerd, just have fun and the game seems to play fine.

Very true. Because the only answer could be, to be dominant, which ends up making the game too easy, less fun. Or, to finish the game faster, which ends up in less experience and value overall and less fun.

I dont get it. Never will.

http://images.wikia.com/finalfantasy/images/8/8c/Rubyweapon_ff7.png

Some players come into a game expecting the devs to provide challenges for ALL types of players. It isn't THEIR fault they're disappointed.

In pretty much all my games I tend to spend more time on gathering information about the game than actual play time. It's how I roll, I'm a perfectionist and like to figure out the ways of optimization and efficiency. After I have that knowledge I don't necessarily always play by those rules though.

I do however hate it when people use this "It's a SP game" as an excuse for flawed and crummy game design. The -100% mana cost enchanting is a clear example of that. It's stupid, plain and simple and should have been +damage% just like the 1h and 2h enchants.

Darn. Was really hoping this thread would be ignored.

I personally view Min-Maxing in a single player game such as this, for me personally as a contest between my creative ability to beat a system constructed by a team of other people. How powerful can I really become through hard work and creative thinking, within the limitations set by the game world, without cheating. Isn't that also the basis for pretty much human nature? to strive to be better then what others think is possible?

Can I make my character a pure mage that utterly obliterates everything the game throws at them, while people are whining about magic being unbalanced and underpowered? yes I can.
Can I make an archer character who can one shot a dragon in the eye or take out an army of bandit mauraders with just my bow, even though people on the forums say bows are broken? yes I can.
Can I do anything else in the game, that people say isn't possible just because they say it isn't possible, without the use of cheats? most likely..
Can I do it all on a single character, without cheating? I'm sure trying.

If I happen to notice any serious mathematical bugs along the way of this form of extreme playtesting, pushing the boundries of the gaming worlds limitations Which is what game testers Should be doing, should I note them and send them to bethesda so it can be fixed? Absolutly, or how else do they know something is wrong when only but a few people have ever tried it?

Every game is a new canvas for people to try and push the boundries of whats possible, even in WOW or honestly much worse then WOW is DDO where Min-Maxers are not only common place but accepted as the standard. The thrill of accomplishing feats others say isn't possible is the glory and reward of your hard work, figuring out how to defeat a test with less then someone else did, or kill a boss by yourself that normally wipes out groups, killing a dragon in Skyrim with your barefists without cheating. Thats the stuff you can be proud of.

I haven't found much wrong with the mechanics of Skyrim, people just really are playing it all wrong. They take perks that dont boost what they are trying to do, they didn't take enough health or armor to absorb the damage they are trying to absorb. If you make a mage character and try to melee a raging orc berserker in heavy plate with an ebony battleaxe, yes you are most likely going to die. But don't go on the forums and complain about it being broken because its not.

And please don't make generalized posts that make passive-aggressive remarks at min-maxers based on a few peoples inability to grasp the mechanics of Skyrim to the point they think its broken.

some balance is needed to make sure the player isn't overly burdened or kept from certain play styles. Like, if they made it so dragons were all 100% magic resistant or if Bretons were not allowed to fast travel.

Indeed. It isn't even an exploit to reach that level - in the natural progression of enchanting, you reach that point.

If you had to use the double helmet glitch or crafting loop, that is one thing.

The problem is that in every TES game previous, this kind of behavior resulted in BREAKING THE GAME both Morrowind and Oblivion were much, much worse than Skyrim in this regard.

That's probably why the OP find's it so amazing that people are complaining about it..I mean when someone who played Morrowind complains about balance and is min/maxing, it makes me wonder if they've forgotten what a TES game is or what.

you and me both.

Balance is pretty important to me, and I don't have a MMORPG mentality. If my character feels way too powerful or weak, the game isn't fun. You have to find that sweet spot in the middle...

I actually liked Runescape because of this. Certain zones had certain leveled enemies. You could always tackle a zone that was manageable for you. When you grew powerful enough to take on tougher enemies, you were awarded with better loot, XP, or whatever. Essentially, everything auto-balanced.

this

People min/max in RPGs.

WoW did not start this. Calling these people "WoW kids" should be a reportable offense, because its stupid.

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The balance whiners are the WoW kids who think Skyrim should have segmented areas you can only go to at certain levels.

The problem is there is nothing for higher level characters to tackle. I'm sure with DLC we'll see something for stronger characters, but right out of the box I would have loved to see a Deep Dungeon type of a scenario. Heck, mix in some Ultimecia's Castle in there too and I would have **** myself (other than having a set for stealing stuff and a set for crafting, my main character has NEVER had to use alternate armor sets because an enemy was just that tough).

I get that, I just wish TES wasn't so accidentally easy all the time