Do you need actual perks in say elven, improved steel, glass, and such in order to improve items. Lets say you have a perk in the middle perk for enchanted items, do you need to follow the smithing tree further to improve this item or does it mainly go by smithing level?

Topic discussion about 8 spots below you.
http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1339514-smithing-tree/

It goes by smithing level. The perk allow you to create that kind or gear and improve the specific weapon/armor class twice as much. You do need the arcane enchanted perk to improve magical gear however.

I read it, but the question is, do I have to spend perks to improve it further. Say I have thieves but to make it superior do I need to have the perk in elven, and then for flawless at least have glass?

Without the respective perks, ancient knowledge, enchanting, or alchemy, I believe the higest you can smith is flawless at 100. And there is no perk for guild armor.

yes but do you need to spend perks in smithing in order to improve armor i guess is the question?

You do not need perks to get armors and weapons or improve them. If I find a Steel Sword in a dungeon I can improve it with a steel ingot, depending on my skill level and if I have perks. This is a very useful link.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Smithing#Item_Quality

ok I get it I think, thanks. Maybe I should start over I spent a perk in elven and I guess I don't need it to eventually get flawless, i think passed that hits the armor cap anyway. thanks.

Yes no perks are needed to improve your gear to flawless or so on. The perks just double how much you improve them.

Try this thread, it should answer all questions:

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1333470-complete-character-design-freedom-damage-resist-caps-and-ridiculous-damage-thread-9/

Perks only give bonus to smithing. It is possible to upgrade everything upgradable w/o any perks whatsoever. Cannot create new or upgrade magical items w/o perks though.

You need up to the Arcane Perk so you can improve Enchanted Items. Improving is nice for weapons as nothing you buy or find will be improved. Also, you eliminate the need to use a certain material to have the best armor. Steel Plate can be better than Ebony if it is improved. Now, you can pick the material you want based on role or aesthetic.

You don't need any Perks in Smithing to make good stuff. But, a couple well placed perks will let you get more out your weapons and armor without being over powered.

Yes I improve armor that is not as great as some or the later game gear for aesthetic reasons. I wear what ny character prefers for roleplaying reasons. I find that without any perks smithing is great and very useful.

I am going to get the arcane enchanter perk so I can improve my magical gear.

Just adding that the Ancient Knowledge perk you get at the end of Unfathomable Depths is currently bugged and will add a permanent +15% Fortify Smithing as well as 25% increase to ALL armor ratings, despite what the description says.

If you have a perk in smithing, not only can you craft the armor for that perk, but improve it more than you would be able to without the perk, at the same smithing level.

thanks i found my answer from http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Smithing#Item_Quality
you don't need to spend perks to improve items beyond fine or superior, well that is unless you want it sooner (for that particular style, steel, glass, elven, etc). For the character I build this time I don't need to create weapons (going dual savagry on mehruns and valdr's lucky dagger, just cant lose them to some disarm crap) and im using thieves guild / db armor. so in that case I need steel and the improve enchanted items and no more. Which was the question. Thanks for all your suggestions.

btw I heard rumor that armor has a cap so going beyond flawless might be pointless anyway, and besides I feel confident without legendary.