[John N]

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1371449-3rd-person-hotkey-mmo-confirmed/

I'm still disappointed in this turn of events. I'll follow the game, but I won't be to happy on it.

[Project]

I'm very disappointed that there will not be a first-person perspective option. I really find it hard to believe actually. TOR uses the same engine and has both third and first-person perspective as does EQ, DAOC, WOW, AOC, and LOTRO. I thought that choice was fairly standard these days.

[Emmanuel Morales]

It simply amazes me how blind these developers can be! The one chance to make a MMO with is not TYPICAL AND CLONED and make an MMO which has the combat system that Elder Scrolls is known for...jesus age christ you'd think Bethesda would have the smarts.

I firmly believe they would make more sales if they cater to the people that play Elder Scrolls and not the bleeding MMO market in general.

[Sarah Edmunds]

It's such as shame that they decided to make it a typical MMO, I don't think it suits the world very well, I think something akin to Darkforge and other mmo games where you level your skills to determine your class that rather deciding it right at the beginning.

[Becky Cox]

Removing first-person is hard to understand, even though there is now an option to play in third-person, Bethesda would never remove the 1st person POV from a TES game these days,
Everquest had it, so it's not like it's a jump in hyperspace, technology-wise.

Removing lots of world interaction for online play is understandable, forcing 3rd person cameras, hardly so. Seems like it came with the package of engine limitations and no one ever questioned "Why, what Elder Scrolls game was only in 3rd person? Redguard! That was highly successful, let's go with that."

[Lou]

I can understand a personal preference for first person or third person camera, but what's wrong with hotkeys?

[Joey Bel]

It really disturbs me to see publishers fall for the same trap over and over again. Games try and try to capture part of that WoW pie, and they always walk away with little more than crumbs. Warhammer couldn't do it. Neither could Rift. Freakin' Star Wars couldn't even do it. Get. It. Through. Your. Heads. There is no such thing as a WoW killer. There is no such thing as a rival, even. Comparing yourself to or patterning yourself after WoW is a recipe for mediocrity and failure. I know it's too late to hear this now, but that's what you get for keeping the fanbase out of the loop for most of the development. You wanted to develop in a vacuum and you got what you wanted. A vacuum, devoid of any substance save for the ego and greed that drives one to make a WoW clone. Congrats.

You know who managed to attract and hold a fanbase for years(still going), and has been experiencing steady, modest growth throughout their game's existence? CCP, the creators of Eve Online. Now, this game will never have the numbers of WoW(but see above for my thoughts on that) because the premise and gameplay are not attractive to as large an audience, but those that do play the game continue to do so because there isn't another game quite like it. Whatever it is that does it for these players, Eve does well, and so the game has not gone the F2P path, nor does it lie broken and abandoned like so many challengers to WoW's crown.

You want to succeed in the long term? Be different. It's not like you don't have a source of inspiration to base engaging gameplay on(hint: you named your game after it).

[Taylrea Teodor]

Speaking for myself, it's a tired formula. The problem is not hotkeys, but auto-combat. Hotkeys and auto-combat games have been done to death and people are just tired to sit down and press the right keys to add to a queue. It's one of the reasons the MMO formula has worn out. Modern games are trying to give players more interaction during combat. The design philosophy exists: The stamina bar is trying to accomplish that, but that's not nearly enough. In Age of Conan, you could control your swings with directional input and finishing moves, but that wasn't enough to stand out either. It's an old MMRPG gimmick to compensate the lack of real combat physics and latency times.

Does it work? Sure does. But it feels old school, especially for players coming from Skyrim's real time combat. Which was also heavily criticized for lacking weight, hit reaction and for employing large pools of hitpoints to simulate difficulty. So it's like taking an already outdated system and stripping off all the novelties that despite its shortcomings, still made it exciting.

[Amie Mccubbing]

Meh. I was really hoping for 1st person and better combat,the graphics could be a bit more realistic too. Got to see how it develops though...

[Penny Courture]

Things you can't do in queue based MMO combat:

- Dodge an incoming spell (dice rolls prevent that)
- Use the environments (static environment never changes, except through phasing)
- Hit and run strategies (you'll just get destroyed by aggro)
- Outsmart your enemies (abuse policies prevent that)
- Manage your abilities with freedom (timers and cooldowns)
- Circle around your foes to hit them in the back (doesn't matter where you hit them)
- Stagger or throw your enemies around the environment (invisible walls and mechanics replaced by stunlocks and crowd control)
- Be self-sufficient (you can't go anywhere or stand a chance to defeat every enemy, unless you have a group)
- Aim and fire ranged weapons wherever you want (must target a monster)
- Combat animations do not collide and have no weight (it seems like you're always hitting the air)
- Enemies don't get smarter, they only stand there having progressively larger amounts of hitpoints.
- Monsters keep spawning endlessly, so there's no sense of actually killing anything or causing any impact, as things will be revived every 2 minutes.
- NPC foes are just cookie-cutter with slighty varied abilities sharing the same trash mob AI, standing around and waiting to be killed. Except for bosses, which have endless hp pools.
- You can't develop your own combat strategy, you have a set of skills and are expected to consistently activate all of them to defeat any particular enemy.

[Cat Haines]

It really disturbs me to see publishers fall for the same trap over and over again. Games try and try to capture part of that WoW pie, and they always walk away with little more than crumbs. Warhammer couldn't do it. Neither could Rift. Freakin' Star Wars couldn't even do it. Get. It. Through. Your. Heads. There is no such thing as a WoW killer. There is no such thing as a rival, even. Comparing yourself to or patterning yourself after WoW is a recipe for mediocrity and failure. I know it's too late to hear this now, but that's what you get for keeping the fanbase out of the loop for most of the development. You wanted to develop in a vacuum and you got what you wanted. A vacuum, devoid of any substance save for the ego and greed that drives one to make a WoW clone. Congrats.

You know who managed to attract and hold a fanbase for years(still going), and has been experiencing steady, modest growth throughout their game's existence? CCP, the creators of Eve Online. Now, this game will never have the numbers of WoW(but see above for my thoughts on that) because the premise and gameplay are not attractive to as large an audience, but those that do play the game continue to do so because there isn't another game quite like it. Whatever it is that does it for these players, Eve does well, and so the game has not gone the F2P path, nor does it lie broken and abandoned like so many challengers to WoW's crown.

You want to succeed in the long term? Be different. It's not like you don't have a source of inspiration to base engaging gameplay on(hint: you named your game after it).

somebody should sticky this post on the top of the forum and not allow anyone else to make any more threads

[Janeth Valenzuela Castelo]

I would have given the game a chance if the game was first person. There aren't any good MMO FPS games out, I thought they'd make a difference here. Guess not.

Also - first person view requires more detailed environment art... more detailed maps/levels and more detailed character models. Obviously by making it third person, they're cutting some workload.

[Tracy Byworth]

I need to see it in action, I think alot of people are thinking its literally turn-based like Fallout1/2

- Dodge an incoming spell (dice rolls prevent that)
- Use the environments (static environment never changes, except through phasing)
- Hit and run strategies (you'll just get destroyed by aggro)
- Outsmart your enemies (abuse policies prevent that)
- Manage your abilities with freedom (timers and cooldowns)
- Circle around your foes to hit them in the back (doesn't matter where you hit them)
- Stagger or throw your enemies around the environment (invisible walls and mechanics replaced by stunlocks and crowd control)
- Be self-sufficient (you can't go anywhere or stand a chance to defeat every enemy, unless you have a group)
- Aim and fire ranged weapons wherever you want (must target a monster)
- Combat animations do not collide and have no weight (it seems like you're always hitting the air)
- Enemies don't get smarter, they only stand there having progressively larger amounts of hitpoints.
- Monsters keep spawning endlessly, so there's no sense of actually killing anything or causing any impact, as things will be revived every 2 minutes.
- NPC foes are just cookie-cutter with slighty varied abilities sharing the same trash mob AI, standing around and waiting to be killed. Except for bosses, which have endless hp pools.
- You can't develop your own combat strategy, you have a set of skills and are expected to consistently activate all of them to defeat any particular enemy.

Most of that is allowed in GW2, the game this game most resembles atm (in design).

[Jonathan Windmon]

Things you can't do in queue based MMO combat:

- Dodge an incoming spell (dice rolls prevent that)
> As appososed to Skyrim, where you can't even dodge with dice rolls ...
- Use the environments (static environment never changes, except through phasing)
> We already know that we can create environemntal hazards.
- Hit and run strategies (you'll just get destroyed by aggro)
> What are you talking about. Hit and run has been a viable strategy in all MMOs I played, and there is no "aggro" in TESO.
- Outsmart your enemies (abuse policies prevent that)
> Standing on a rock and sniping your enemy isn't outsmarting, it's abuse. Outsmarting is the use of tactics withing the game mechanics.
- Manage your abilities with freedom (timers and cooldowns)
> Technically you could, but I don't think we will be able to ...
- Circle around your foes to hit them in the back (doesn't matter where you hit them)
> Why wouldn't it matter where you hit them. I'm confused. Several MMOs I played had that feature, as opposed to any TES game.
- Stagger or throw your enemies around the environment (invisible walls and mechanics replaced by stunlocks and crowd control)
> We already know that enemies can stagger in TESO.
- Be self-sufficient (you can't go anywhere or stand a chance to defeat every enemy, unless you have a group)
> Of course you can. What makes you say that?
- Aim and fire ranged weapons wherever you want (must target a monster)
> There are MMOs that allow this.
- Combat animations do not collide and have no weight (it seems like you're always hitting the air)
> Not necessarily, but I'd be surprised if it weren't like that in TESO ...
- Enemies don't get smarter, they only stand there having progressively larger amounts of hitpoints.
> Nonsense.
- Monsters keep spawning endlessly, so there's no sense of actually killing anything or causing any impact, as things will be revived every 2 minutes.
> As opposed to ... ?
- NPC foes are just cookie-cutter with slighty varied abilities sharing the same trash mob AI, standing around and waiting to be killed. Except for bosses, which have endless hp pools.
> Have you ever played an MMO? It's much more challenging than any TES game I ever played.
- You can't develop your own combat strategy, you have a set of skills and are expected to consistently activate all of them to defeat any particular enemy.
> Of course you can develop your own strategies, especially in groups. Seriously, what have you been playing?

[courtnay]

Meh...
If they are planning to make a MMO, they should try to be original and stand out instead of being just an another MMO in the sea.
Still, as long as they plan to continue with original TES games, I kinda don't care how TESO will look like, and only hope that it will bring them money.
Why?
Because more money means that TES VI will end up being a much better game!
Not only that, but they won't need to rush things anymore or dumb down a game to below casual level like they did to Skyrim (honestly, if that game didn't look pretty, I bet that no one would play it).

Still, if their goal is to make an actually good MMO and not a easy source of money (hell, even if they aim just to make it an easy source of money, they will need to work their asses of and be unique since there wouldn't be a reason for me to play TESO instead, for example, GW2, Tera or WoW), then it would be better if they try to stick with elements which made TES famous.
Some of those elements are:
- Unique art style (they should aim for more realistic and traditional medieval style instead of popular animeish, cartoony and over the top styles).
- Unique gameplay (their MMO should be in 1st person, automatically making it into a action MMORPG).
- No classes (this is also one of things which make TES stand out and they should give it a shoot).

[My blood]

I can understand a personal preference for first person or third person camera, but what's wrong with hotkeys?

Probably the fact that it's something every MMO does now adays, I don't mind as long as there isn't a targeting system and homing attacks.
It's not the concept for me at least it's the fact that it dosn't add anything to the genre and the hotkey-smashing has never been a huge part in TES for me.
And it's one step closer for this game to become a WoW clone.

[Eileen Collinson]

It simply amazes me how blind these developers can be! The one chance to make a MMO with is not TYPICAL AND CLONED and make an MMO which has the combat system that Elder Scrolls is known for...jesus age christ you'd think Bethesda would have the smarts.

I firmly believe they would make more sales if they cater to the people that play Elder Scrolls and not the bleeding MMO market in general.

For the last time... Bethesda isn't the one behind the MMO... Don't blame the single-player TES creators for anything done in this MMO.

[Lily Evans]

> As appososed to Skyrim, where you can't even dodge with dice rolls ...
Yes, you can dodge incoming fireballs, frost bolts and arrows in real time. In MMO's you're target locked.

> We already know that we can create environemntal hazards.
Creating local hazards by activating an animated skill doesn't mean using the environment. Can you shoot oil lanterns, kick piled logs, step on pressure plates to lure enemies into traps?

> What are you talking about. Hit and run has been a viable strategy in all MMOs I played, and there is no "aggro" in TESO.
I'm talking about getting into a dungeon using stealth, shoot down an enemy, run and hide in Skyrim, it's a feasible strategy. If you enter a dungeon in a MMO and do the same thing you'll have a whole train of angry mobs after you. It's not a viable strategy for stealth play, in fact stealth play in MMO's is nonexistant, it's basically stunlocking and invisibility plus some sinister sounding damage making abilities which are no different from any others, except cosmetically.

> Standing on a rock and sniping your enemy isn't outsmarting, it's abuse. Outsmarting is the use of tactics withing the game mechanics
It's freedom, you can climb rocks, you can aim with a bow. In MMOs you can't climb rocks and you can't aim your bow, so definetly less mechanics to play out of the box.

> Why wouldn't it matter where you hit them. I'm confused. Several MMOs I played had that feature, as opposed to any TES game.
It matters if you're required to stand around during combat. There is no reason to keep moving in MMO's, actually it disrupts the flow of combat. You basically sit there and spam abilities on your queue.

> We already know that enemies can stagger in TESO.
What I meant by staggering does not equal stunlocking. Stagerring means they react to your hits, instead of just playing a hit animation.

> Of course you can. What makes you say that?
The fact lots of content will be designed exclusively for groups and raids, inclusing the most important bosses.

> There are MMOs that allow this.
This doesn't seem to be the case.

> Not necessarily, but I'd be surprised if it weren't like that in TESO ...
Finally, we agree.

> Nonsense.
Total sense. If you know of a MMO with interesting enemy AI, by all means point it out. This is FPS territory and one of the reasons why TES (singleplayer) stands out.

> As opposed to ... ?
As opposed to singleplayer games, where dungeons may take days to re-spawn. Would it feel accomplishing to clear a dungeon and see it completely repopulated on your back to town? MMOs.

> Have you ever played an MMO? It's much more challenging than any TES game I ever played.
Yes, Ultima Online, Everquest, Star Wars Galaxies, Asheron's Call, Everquest 2, World of Warcraft, Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, Lord of the Rings Online and currently Old Republic. Will that do? But I don't recall any of those presenting any innovation at all in the way mobs are handled.

> Of course you can develop your own strategies, especially in groups. Seriously, what have you been playing?
I don't call it strategy, strategies are always different. It's more a like a rinse and repeat process, grinding if you will. You only need to learn to play your class once, and once you get past the learning curve, it's the same experience repeated over and over, with different rewards.

[Tracey Duncan]

I dont really understand. I dont play (many) MMO's and I dont know exactly what this hotkey thing means.

Is it like Dragon Age origins? The way people talk about it reminds me of that.
because that is very RPG, I approve of that.

[Agnieszka Bak]

The main defining aspects of TES and if they will be presented in MMO form:

Classic
- Sandbox (Nope)
- First-person (Nope)
- Real time combat (Nope)
- Huge streaming world you can go anywhere you see (Nope)
- Freedom to develop your character using any skills available in the game (Nope)
- Lore (Yep)
- Highly interactive environment (Nope)
- Player decisions alter the game world (Nope)
- Player centered story (Nope)

Recent
- Radiant AI (Nope)
- Radiant Story (Nope)
- NPCs and critters with daily schedules (Nope)

What's left? Standard fantasy RPG with familiar names and MMO gameplay.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for co-op TES, as long as it retains every single aspect that made TES what it is.

[Melung Chan]

It really disturbs me to see publishers fall for the same trap over and over again. Games try and try to capture part of that WoW pie, and they always walk away with little more than crumbs. Warhammer couldn't do it. Neither could Rift. Freakin' Star Wars couldn't even do it. Get. It. Through. Your. Heads. There is no such thing as a WoW killer. There is no such thing as a rival, even. Comparing yourself to or patterning yourself after WoW is a recipe for mediocrity and failure. I know it's too late to hear this now, but that's what you get for keeping the fanbase out of the loop for most of the development. You wanted to develop in a vacuum and you got what you wanted. A vacuum, devoid of any substance save for the ego and greed that drives one to make a WoW clone. Congrats.

You know who managed to attract and hold a fanbase for years(still going), and has been experiencing steady, modest growth throughout their game's existence? CCP, the creators of Eve Online. Now, this game will never have the numbers of WoW(but see above for my thoughts on that) because the premise and gameplay are not attractive to as large an audience, but those that do play the game continue to do so because there isn't another game quite like it. Whatever it is that does it for these players, Eve does well, and so the game has not gone the F2P path, nor does it lie broken and abandoned like so many challengers to WoW's crown.

You want to succeed in the long term? Be different. It's not like you don't have a source of inspiration to base engaging gameplay on(hint: you named your game after it).

I just had to quote you for this beautifully well written post. Bravo.

[Bitter End]

I dont really understand. I dont play (many) MMO's and I dont know exactly what this hotkey thing means. Is it like Dragon Age origins? The way people talk about it reminds me of that. because that is very RPG, I approve of that.

That means basically combat consists of standing around firing a collection of damage making skills, buffs and heals while your character stands in front of the monsters. It would be classic RPG, except you lack the ability to pause and assign orders to your team, removing the strategy element and relying on teamplay and communication instead. Is it fun? Sure. Is it old? Totally. Is it TES? Definetly not.

[Mariaa EM.]

It simply amazes me how blind these developers can be! The one chance to make a MMO with is not TYPICAL AND CLONED and make an MMO which has the combat system that Elder Scrolls is known for...jesus age christ you'd think Bethesda would have the smarts.

I firmly believe they would make more sales if they cater to the people that play Elder Scrolls and not the bleeding MMO market in general.

I totally agree, they'd have a huge confirmed following right off the bat with PC players and I've no doubt that console players might want to adapt themselves as well over to the PC just for this game. Literally the best thing that they could do, honestly, is just make a co-op mode for Skyrim or the next Elder Scrolls game from Bethesda. Hell, include it into Dawnguard. That is what we originally wanted, why not just put it in there instead of overdoing it and tossing in an unneeded MMO atmosphere?

[Devin Sluis]

It really disturbs me to see publishers fall for the same trap over and over again. Games try and try to capture part of that WoW pie, and they always walk away with little more than crumbs. Warhammer couldn't do it. Neither could Rift. Freakin' Star Wars couldn't even do it. Get. It. Through. Your. Heads. There is no such thing as a WoW killer. There is no such thing as a rival, even. Comparing yourself to or patterning yourself after WoW is a recipe for mediocrity and failure. I know it's too late to hear this now, but that's what you get for keeping the fanbase out of the loop for most of the development. You wanted to develop in a vacuum and you got what you wanted. A vacuum, devoid of any substance save for the ego and greed that drives one to make a WoW clone. Congrats.

You know who managed to attract and hold a fanbase for years(still going), and has been experiencing steady, modest growth throughout their game's existence? CCP, the creators of Eve Online. Now, this game will never have the numbers of WoW(but see above for my thoughts on that) because the premise and gameplay are not attractive to as large an audience, but those that do play the game continue to do so because there isn't another game quite like it. Whatever it is that does it for these players, Eve does well, and so the game has not gone the F2P path, nor does it lie broken and abandoned like so many challengers to WoW's crown.

You want to succeed in the long term? Be different. It's not like you don't have a source of inspiration to base engaging gameplay on(hint: you named your game after it).

Rift is doing fine....

[GLOW...]

That means basically combat consists of standing around firing a collection of damage making skills, buffs and heals while your character stands in front of the monsters. It would be classic RPG, except you lack the ability to pause and assign orders to your team, removing the strategy element and relying on teamplay and communication instead. Is it fun? Sure. Is it old? Totally. Is it TES? Definetly not.

Hm.
Thanks for the info