At no point in the story does the Dovahkiin join the Blades; he/she is never given that option. Joining them would involve taking the same oath and being issued the same gear that your followers get if/when they are recruited into the organization. That does not happen and the possibility of it happening never even comes up. The Blades are not a joinable faction in Skyrim.

Now you can RP that you joined them if you want, but that's your choice and yours alone. My Dovahkiin never joined the Blades; my Dovahkiin had no interest in the Blades and didn't know they still existed until one of them decided to force her way into my business.

Did she do that so she could decide if I was worthy to join their special little club? Apparently not, because I was never asked to join. On the contrary, I was asked to go where they wouldn't or couldn't go, obtain what they couldn't or wouldn't go get for themselves, and do what they could not or would do on their own. I was not a member, I was just a very powerful and unique and useful tool. I don't see how that obligates me to them in any way whatsoever. I didn't take an oath to serve their goals or do their bidding. I served those goals insofar as they coincided with mine, and I did their bidding when it seemed like the best or only way available to get where I needed to go next. In that respect, I treated them exactly the way they treated me. It's not my fault that they still need me to do things for them after I've outgrown any need for their support and assistance.

Its more oc one hand washes the other. Blades as they are want to protect and help the dovahkin, but they need the dovahkin to get the tools for them. Once they have the tools, then they can protect and serve the dovahkin. You are correct in the immediate sense in tnat their nessary uses up before they arw finished asking what they meed or want...actually no. the only thing they want you to do after they given u all the Intel and such that u need before u fight alduin.. At the part where they ask you to kill paar is the requirement of dedication to lead the blades after there up and running. A sign as u will, to kill the last dragon survivor of the dragon war, thier loose end.
If the dragonborn does it, theres no consequence other than having the greybeards dissappointed and mad. If the blades did it, they either be shouted apart and or have the entire country of skyrim after them for the sole reason of atking the greybeards. Makes percect sense tl send ir new leader to deal with paar since hes the only one to be able to get there safely amd without causing a war, also not to side with him when he has absolutly nothing to lose unlike septim and the previous empkrers.

Weather you can officially join or not is semantics the point is its no unreasonable for a borderline cult devoted to eradicating dragons would stop helping you if you knowingly associated with a dragon especially one with parthunux's reputation and history. I always felt you really do join the blades in the same way as you join the bards college in that it doesn't show up as a major quest line but your still a member.

It just always irritates me when people complain that the game has no choices at all and then when skyrim presents (game mechanics wise) a very small choice people complain that they can't have their cake and eat it too. If I had it my way there would be diametrically opposed factions that were completely mutually exclusive. There are in game but the opposite faction is usually not join able except in the case of the legion/storm cloaks and blades/way of the voice.

They don't need Paarth dead in order to protect and serve me. Nor do I need their protection and service. We can speculate about future events all we want, but as it stands in the game once I to that point in the MQ they have become useless to me and I see no reason why that would change, unless I suddenly just lose the powers and skills that I have or have acquired. And if that happens, I will be useless to them and given their behavior so far I don't see them sticking around if that's the case.

If they are expecting me to "lead" the Blades, you'd think they would make that clear, no? But they don't. As I said, there's no mention as far as I can remember of the Dovahkiin either joining or taking over the Blades. Perhaps they have assumed too much. Their fault, not mine.

I'm not complaining that I can't "be a Blade" and spare Paarth at the same time. Given what the Blades are when I meet them, I don't want to be one, and it bears repeating that I was never given that option anyway because they are not a joinable faction. The Bards College is a joinable faction, because you have a quest that specifically entails visiting and becoming a member of it. The fact that the questline there is minor compared to some others is IMO irrelevant.

There is no such quest for the Blades. The Blades insert themselves into the Dragonborn's life in the person of Delphine, with no warning and without an invitation. You do not then get a quest that says "join the Blades" or something equivalent to that. As I said, you can "feel" like you joined them from a role-playing perspective, but that's about it. Obviously there are other people, including me, who feel differently about it.

I agree that ingame mechanics they become more useless after I get the dragons name from them.
Future wise I see them being very very useful than current state, but I agree its all debateable and subjective.

Basically I just go with rule of thumb. Would I rather err and make a powerful but hermit nuetral grp of people angry or would u rather havecountrys and history blame u on the destruction and loss of lives because u decided to live and let live. Those are worse case scenarios for either side. Me I rather piss off a grp of powerful but nietral and pacifist monks than the chance of destruction of land and mass amounts of mer. My opionion, im looking at long term consequences which I know is subjective than instant consequences.

Also the quest to join the blades is the one we are discussing. Delphies own words about the quest is u either with us or against us. This is the quest that lets u join the faction or not.

I don't recall ever hearing her say that. On the other hand, I don't know that I've ever spoken to her after getting to the point where they ask me to kill Paarth, and it's always Esbern who asks because he's the only one I talk to. Once I get Odahviing's name from him I have no further need of them and I don't go back there. And I don't like Delphine to start with, so I don't bother with her unless it's required. I think the last time it's required is when you are going to open up the temple and after that you only need to talk to her if you are bringing recruits.

At any rate, if she says that in reference to killing Paarth being a requirement for actually joining the Blades... well, that train has already long since left the station at that point so where I'm concerned it's a little too late to be bringing it up.

and thats perfectly fine.
Theres enough there to satisfy both sides, neither is right or wrong. Even tiber septim made horrible mistakes if paar comes to pass as a destructive force. Theres also enough there to feel u gained a cult group in slaying dragons, intel gathering, and spying.

Which side u pick or like is up to you, its all opionion right now since none of us have any real knowledge of future events.

But based upon what ive seen and heard and read, its my opionion that paar uses u basically the same way as the blades. The blades want you to defeat paar to finish the job because they cannot for reasons ive alrdy stated, and paar wants you to dethrone alduin so he can take his spo in ruling and gathering the dragons under him because paar cannot nor any dovah can harm alduin, only mer using dragonrend.

Basically it all boils down to who u want to be used by.

Everyone wants you to defeat alduin. Even the Thalmor.(It'd be disastrous for their plans if Alduin actually followed through on his original purpose now)

exactly, its the reasons WHY they want alduin gone that is the big picture.

The fact that we don't have the option to ride Paarthunax to Sky Haven Temple and burn that [censored] to the ground and decapitate Delphine and Esbern is a crying shame.

Would have been a nice option to have to turn The Blades into the Order of Paarthunax.

im not gonna lie...i lold

I don't see how it's possible to reach this conclusion unless it's based on the assumption that Paarth has an agenda far beyond anything that is hinted at in the game. Those are assumptions that you seem to have made, which is fine... nevertheless: Paarth does not tell you to go do something and then deny you his friendship and company if you refuse to comply. The Blades do exactly that, and that's where the difference lies.

Besides which, if he wanted to rule the world by ruling all the dragons and reinstating their campaign of oppression against the Joor, I think he had plenty of time to do that after Alduin was banished the first time. If that was his intention, he could've just helped the Joor way back then in order to get rid of Alduin and then taken over himself. But he didn't do it then and I see no reason to believe he's going to do it now.

the reason why he hasnt established himself when alduin was first banished was because the dragons knew he was flung thru a time warp to the future. Be pointless as an immortal to jump the gun when he knew that alduin was coming back, so instead he sat and waited and cornered the thuum teaching to one area and waited fkr the dragonborn to come when alduin comes back.

The assumptions are made by dragons speeches to where they talk about alduins fault as being ruler over them, when its not his place, basically stating that alduin shoulda came and ate the world and moved on instead of staying and dominating the dragons.
thats the reason why the dragons helped us in first place. As for paar using us so he can take alduins spot is bc right at the summit when the dragons learn of alduins dismise, paar is no longer on the mpuntain top mediating, he immediatly goes off to try to recruit dragons underhis way of the voice. He even states that the dragons are leaderless now which they had always been before alduin and he sees his as his right to go and gather them under his leadership since everyone is leaderless now. Immediantly afterwards.

And theres others that brought me to my conclusion from ingame scenarios.

Then you are assuming that he is lying when he says his intention is to recruit them to the Way of the Voice, because following the Way of the Voice doesn't include recreating the rule of Alduin only with Paarthurnax at the head of the table. The whole point of what Paarthurnax says he is going to do is to prevent that sort of thing from happening again, by asserting his dominance among the remaining the dragons and then using it to try and convert them to the Way.

Again, you can assume he is lying, but you must assume that in order for his actions at that point to be an indication that he poses a threat, because if they are sincere then they are proof of the exact opposite.

Again the way of the voice is different for mortals than for dovahs. Mortals are restricted in when to use the voice whereas dovahs do not have that restriction. So far the way of the voice makes a dovah stronger without the restriction of using the thuum in great need, they can use whenver they want. As far as paar remaining up on the mountain top mediating all this time, I think we can agree that hes been there for whenever the dragonborn does come, paar will right where he needs to be. And since paar influenced jurgon and pretty much monopolized the thuum teaching, when the dragonborn comes hes got only one place to go to learn aboit the thuum and paar will ne waiting for him her. Thats the only reason why paar was there stationary this whole time basically.

Again all just my opionion and what the situations seemed to me. I agree theres no right or wrong answer at this time until a dlc,, the next game, or if they decide to forget this situation in lore. The two different sides to each situation and im sayin what I see and perceive and theres others that in there right will disagrre BC a situation looked differently on them.

Just wanted to get that out there to continue the discussion

As I said in my reply in another thread... the Way of the Voice is a philosophy. Having the Voice is a learned skill or inborn gift. They are two different things, they do not automatically go hand in hand, not for anyone, mortal or dragon. Mortals are only restricted in how they use the Voice if they agree to follow the Way and abide by the Greybeards' philosophy. That is a voluntary thing for them just as it would be for a dragon. The only consequence of not agreeing to follow the Way is that the Greybeards don't teach you how to Shout in the first place, or don't teach you any more words of power, and don't impart the knowledge necessary to use them in their magical context (the Thu'um).

The only reason the rule doesn't "apply" to dragons and the Dragonborn is that the Greybeards don't have the leverage to enforce it in those cases; they can't make it apply in either case. Dragons and the Dragonborn don't need someone to teach them how to Shout. They do it naturally. The Dragonborn needs to learn the words of power and comprehend their meaning, but he/she can do that without the Greybeards. The only way the Greybeards can have any influence over the Dragonborn at all is to provide counsel and assistance whether the Dragonborn agrees to follow the Way or not. Thus they make an exception.

Anyone who can Shout can use the Thu'um whenever they want. The philosophy of the Way and True Need is voluntarily in all cases and the only way it can be considered mandatory is if you are a Greybeard and want to remain one or hope to become one.

Ayup. One of the few in this game....


And in essence, that's the ONE thing that would make me actually want Alduin to just do his damn job - because the Thalmor would be left out in the cold dark bits of the universe, still "un-godly"....

A PERFECT end, in my opinion.

Lol again I posted in another thread. I believe we are on the same lage just looking at different paragraphs per se lol.

The phosophy does apply to the part afyer learnimg the thuum, the part about mediating. Id say the reason for the restriction on using as a aeapon besides having the only masters of the thuum not used against dragons if and when they come back umder paars rules, is that its forbidden so it makes u mediate the word and absorb ots meaning better. Almost like some karate or kung fu stuff, where the words are neither good or bad they are just what they are. Without the thoughts of violence its easier to see the yin and yang of the word. U can see the good, the bad, the nuetrality of the word. Im giessing understanding both sides and how it coexists without the thoughts and feelings of violence clouding the person to rely heavy on the violent side of a word and in so not being able to find the balance of each side in it and asborb that meaning and essence.

That still has nothing to do with some supposed restriction on how mortals can use the Thu'um that does not actually exist outside of the Greybeards' philosophy, and which is not mandatory for anyone who doesn't want to be a Greybeard, mortal or dragon. Nor does it have anything to do with why Paarth would be more or less likely to "go bad" at some future date, or whether or not he's playing the Dovahkiin for a fool by helping him get rid of Alduin under false pretenses, or whether or not Paarth actually can or does follow the Way of the Voice.

Sorry, but if you're trying to make a point about any of those things, I'm not seeing it.

with the greybeards being the only place where anyone can learn the thuum. Thats were the restriction is on who can learn and what they can use it for. Theres no where elae to learn the thuum.

I don't think that's true. It seems that any Nord can learn the Thu'um. It's simply a matter of application. The Shout is in the heritage. I don't see that a Nord would have to dedicate herself to the Greybeards and their "way" unless she wanted to.... In fact, Ulfric did go there, but did not stay (therefore he didn't dedicate himself to their way), and most likely if he chose to take the time and effort, he could do more than just the one shout (and actually, we don't know that he knows "only one" shout....)

He knows two (by my count), Unrelenting Force and Disarm. I've seen him use both.

His mastery of Disarm certainly puts an interesting spin on the whole controversy about the duel with Torygg. I hadn't even thought about it before, but Ulfric could've used Disarm just as easily as Unrelenting Force. It seems pretty clear that he used the latter... I think there would certainly be talk of him disarming Torygg with a shout if it had happened that way, especially as it would make the whole thing seem even more "dishonorable" to those who are already inclined to see it and/or present it in that light.

Don't know where I was going with that but I just never thought about Disarm in terms of the duel before.

How much credence can we give these two people?

There is obviously no ongoing organization of 'The Blades', because these two didn't even know about each other when they just live a couple of towns apart. Even a secret organization know who is and isn't currently a member.

Plus the reason they exist now is because The Blades are dragon killers? There's no ongoing aspect of this in the Blades' culture - it is something that has been re-introduced from ancient times, not a continual tenet of what it means to be a Blade.

So you have 2 people who have not maintained any continuity as an organization, and now have a reinvented purpose for existing. There's no ongoing tradition here. No cohesive and maintained hierarchy. I don't believe they have any authority for declaring themselves 'The Blades', or for claiming it's The Blades' responsibility to wipe out dragons. They're delusional.

Ah. Hmmm. Neither did I, actually. In RL cultures where duels were regimented to some extent (England and France from the Middle Ages through Victoria's reign), there were two "versions" - the duel with swords, and the duel with pistols. In the sword duels, disarm was accepted and usually ended the duel (unless one of the duelists simply wished to kill the opposite party.... a whole OTHER thing); in pistol duels, "disarming" generally took the form of the better shot literally disarming the other participant, by choosing to wound the other's pistol arm rather than go for the kill. This of course put the loser in a bad light, and for quite a long while, but kept them both from some certain repercussions. There was a whole "culture" of the duel....

For much of the latter part of the duelists' era, duels were actually "outlawed" - yes, they still took place, but if caught the participants were likely to be in serious trouble.


I must agree. Though I must also enter a caveat: I've NEVER liked the Blades, nor been comfortable with them in all of the games where they were a faction. So I'm hardly their partisan.

[Edited for SERIOUS stupidity in quoting *sigh*]