I didn't know there was a controversy with production company business models. I'm not very tuned in to the sort of thing.

But for me, the fact that you can start a sentence off with "the state of mainstream RPG's" is GREAT. That there ARE "mainstream" RPG's. I know I sounds a bit like my Grandfather saying "who cares about pot-holes...the damn road is paved, not dirt".

RPG's were pen and paper and dice, the first 20 years of my existence. And took another 10 years for the computer RPG's to actually be kind-of-sort-of good...and still another 10 years for them to be "good" with no qualifiers

I've heard cliches about "young and excited...old and jaded". For me...for RPGs at least...the reverse is true. RPGs just keep getting better. Younger folks who grew up with them are jaded; "nah...that one svcks...it's so pixelated." "It's SO LINEAR."

I suppose it's a good thing though. It makes the companies keep making better games to please the jaded so they can profit.

The concept of "beating an RPG" (my quotes) is alien to me. It's like if my 5 year old said "nah...i've beat that swing-set" "I kicked that bike's ASS!" What's to beat? You start it up and play!

I suppose that's why I've started to see the phrase "sandbox game", popping up here and there. I like it

And then when they'd milked people dry they'd decide the game needed a new edition and start republishing all the old supplements in slightly changed form in the hope that fans would buy the same basic stuff again.

QFT. Don't ever change, Bethesda


They didn't cut it, the DLC squadmate is still on the disc, and can be unlocked by a simple edit

And this sort of [censored] Bethesda has never tried. Their DLCs have actually new content, and substansial amounts of it

...usually as a result of the fact that all the expansions had made the game horribly unbalanced, leaving players with no other option than to go for the new 'revised' edition...

well no other RPGs then elder scrolls have tamriel in it,i fell in love with tamriel and i will be a TES fan forever
But i gotta play mass effect 3. Still have to replay 1 and 2 for the ultimate experience. But that will be after i have done pretty much everything with my main character in skyrim

Really!? patches that add gameplay mechanics? Thats awesome! Beth you gained +20 respect points, plus another 20 for no day 1 DLC.
Thank you for being one of the last honest big publishers around, that goes for Zenimax too im not sure how it is.
You have earned a loyal customer

Bethesda and CDPR give me hope for the future of RPGs. Kudos for not being money-grubbing scumbags.

RPG's are pretty much dead to me now (too dumbed down). Only dev I trust to give me an rpg, is Obsidian. Shame their current project is a southpark game.
Allready moved on from RPG's. Im not even bitter about them being dumbed down anymore, and I dont care about how the genre will end up.

There is no such thing as a Mainstream RPG, only Mainstream Action Hybrids.

The VAST (bolded, Italicized, underlined, and all caps for emphasis) majority of game consumers would never play an RPG, so game developers make Action games. Some developers insert RPG aspects into their Action games in order to slap the "RPG" label on the box to get some additional sales.

Overall, the modern gamer prefers to play games in order to exhibit his or her own skills to friends and strangers online or at the very least likes to receive feedback on the impact of his or her skill. This desire can never be met by an RPG where the character's skills are supposed to have sole/primary impact on outcomes.

Morrowind gameplay was determined by a mix of FPSskills, character stats and Brains.
A game can still have real time combat and have enough RPG elements to be titled a "true" RPG. Morrowind, Deus ex, System shock 2(not so much this one), VTM:B, Arx fatalis, Fallout 3 & NV. All these games I consider a true RPG (just not turn based) yet takes skills and can be played like an action game if you so choose. Thats how I play em, as action games that take brains.

It's more a case of the RPG elements gradually being stripped away from action-RPGs more and more over time, rather than RPG elements being slapped onto action games.

As apdenton pointed out, action-RPGs started out with fairly strong RPG elements.

There's always been a fair amount of player skill / involvement in RPGs. Even the old turn-based RPGs had a lot of emphasis on strategy and tactics.

By skills I mean controller co-ordination, accuracy and reflexes. Strategy and tactics comes under brains id say.

Alot of action games are getting RPG elements slapped on too though, and rightly so
But yes I agree.... with you agreeing with me

Skill doesn't necessarily mean quick reflexes.

skilled/skild/
Adjective:

• Having or showing the knowledge, ability, or training to perform a certain activity well.

Good strategy / tactics comes under that.

RPG's are kind of in a middle ground. Some are still good but are waterdown or Hybrids, those are the Skyrim's of the world. Some like The Witcher 2 are still hardcoe Experiences and others like Mass Effect 3 are games pretending to be an RPG when they really aren't.

I think future RPG's will be fine as long as we have companies like Bethesda and CDProjeckt Red making good games. With the emergence of BHG/38 Studios that's another developer group making good RPG's although Reckoning is more of a Hybrid then an RPG, not saying that's bad as Reckoning is a fine game. Bioware is sadly on the downswing even after Mass Effect 3, I believe a lot of people are upset at the ending of the series and the antics that Bioware has done isn't helping either.

Forgot to mention Obsidian, although they are a 50/50 shot at best, it could be amazing like New Vegas or it could be a flaming turd like Dungeon Siege III.

Morrowind was not a mainstream game, it was a good RPG Hybrid (it was an RPG that blended Action elements) that became popular due to a combination of factors that launched Bethesda into the Mainstream market.

I also do not disagree with your point about the RPG being stripped away; that is actually exactly what I was referring to. RPGs that add Action elements become popular due to the action elements which cause the developers to switch gear and start making very popular Action Hybrids.

Damn, schooled

People STILL think this is some cut conspiracy theory? http://www.destructoid.com/ea-responds-to-mass-effect-3-day-one-dlc-controversy-223673.phtml

They clearly have no idea how game development works. GO ahead, I dare people to try and unlock that DLC without downloading it. It's a framework, it won't work. Like the chasis of a car, it's all there ready to be assembled.

Horse armor wasn't a ripoff. It was an experiment. A very what you see is what you get experiment. Folks could see what it was and decide for themselves whether it was something they wanted to buy. If anyone who didn't want horse armor bought it, they should address their complaint to the person they see in the mirror, not to Bethesda.

At least parts of the Bioware day 1 DLC are on the PC disc, and an added party member could make a much larger difference in your game. Folks worry that if they don't get it, they'll essentially be playing an abridged version of the game.

At least there are still some RPG's that I find entertaining to play. I haven't found a strategy or sim (or combo of both types) game that I personally like for years.

I love nice graphics but I still feel the over-emphasis on those are a big reason for loss of depth in many rpg's. Along with company greed, of course. Like has been said - action-rpg's ala Diablo/Borderlands/whatever are/can be great fun & I don't want to give those up, but I don't want all RPG's to be that.

I also still dislike the DLC concept. One of those ideas that sounds nice in theory but I much preferred the days when they had actual expansions - things that merged with the original game, rather than these separate set pieces. It's not to say all DLC's are bad or something...I've played some good ones. But it's not what I personally want, really.

Computer games, like any other form of cultural expression, is very trend-sensitive. Publishers are constantly looking at what is popular and selling at the moment which is why so many games that are released end up being so similar. Ironically, game consumers are always looking for the next experience, so publishers are always a step behind until someone releases something new and groundbreaking that captures the gaming community by storm, and then that becomes the new trend that everyone else follows.

From my long experience of games, I've come to not worry too much, the trends I liked and enjoyed most will always come back in some shape or form, so I just enjoy what is available now and don't spend so much time dwelling on where the industry is going.

Everyone I know that's played it loves it. I think people are just too critical online.

Actually, I think Bioware are regressing, and not in a negative way. They billed Dragon Age as Baldur's Gate spiritual successor, and I don't think that's inaccurate. If they're pioneering the renaissance of party time-based RPGs, I'm not complaining. Admitedly I've not played Mass Effect, but Dragon Age feels like a return to classic RPGs such as Planescape Torment, which is more than I'd hoped for and just fine by me.

Nope, mass effect and dragon age are lacking in many areas, especially in the gameplay department.

Seems to me that developers these days don't really understand what an RPG is supposed to be. They just put in some numerical indication of your characters' levels and the damage you do to enemies and then call it a day, completely forgetting the roleplaying aspect of the genre.

I will say that what constitutes an RPG is a very broad spectrum of many different things, and as time goes by, what people and developers think makes one will change, but I just can't see a game like Borderlands and call it an RPG without grimacing and wanting to punch myself in the mouth.

Also, I will agree that Bethesda, while I dislike many things they've done to the series, is a company with consistently high quality output, and seems to care about its fanbase to an acceptable degree. It's hard to heed so many players' wishes without ending up with a train wreck of a game, so the series will invariably become better or worse depending on how certain people think of the changes.

Honestly, cutting content is the biggest offense out of anything a company could ever do. Take Mass Effect, for example. I quite enjoyed the optional on-planet Mako exploration feature, but when they cut it because of complaints, I couldn't help but feel betrayed. Bioware could have easily improved it, not only silencing the criticisms, but sparking a new wave of compliments on a job well done. Too bad it didn't happen that way..