People need to stop making this such a straight-forward matter. One of your characters might see that the Stormcloak cause is just, and join them, while another may view keeping the Empire intact a just cause. Neither faction is perfect -- They both have their flaws, and they both have their strengths. One could easily find a justified reason to fight for EITHER SIDE. For me, it simply depends on my CHARACTER'S personal beliefs.

Example:
- My bad-ass Nord warrior who doesn't take any [censored] is going to join the Stormcloaks because he hates elves and doesn't want the Empire to tell him who he can worship. For any of you acting like it isn't a big deal, remember that RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION was one of the reasons that the Thirteen Colonies of America rebelled against the United Kingdom of Great Britain. It's a perfectly just cause.
- However, my Imperial nobleman has undying loyalty to the Empire, and thinks that it must stay intact for the good of all its people.

There are justifications to fight for EITHER SIDE in the war. Stop making it seem so black and white.

:facepalm:

This! Maybe he didn't notice that half the holds support the Imperials and are almost entirely made up of Nords who hold this view, Legate Rikke is a Nord, Hadvar, etc.
Doesn't sound like foreign occupation to me.

Again...

Different characters can view the matter in several different ways. There simply is very little sense of right and wrong between EITHER FACTION. Both just want power. Stop making it about good/evil.

The Imperials sided with the Thalmor. For that they all must die.

If that's the view of one character, cool. For others, they might say that the Empire was forced to side with the Thalmor but that the Empire needs to stay intact. We as people looking into the game should realize that neither side is completely right or completely wrong, but we should give our CHARACTERS the opinions. We are playing the characters, the characters are not us.

... as for the other side being manipulated and led by the nose by Thalmor to the sole purpose of weaking the empire?

Because they had to in order to maintain their survival. Trust me, the Legion wants desperately to strike back against the Thalmor, but must wait.


Exactly!

Yeah, i like the imperials cause of guys like Hadvar, and also his uncle is kind, so i would never start a Stormcloak supporter except for exploring that path of the game.

Tell me, is it not still a foreign occupation if HALF the holds agree with them? Even if all of them supported the imperials, it is still a foreign(if you're not aware, the imperials are cyrodillic. They hired nords to assist them.) occupation, because they are in a country which is not their own, and are occupying it.

merely?he used a shout to cheat,then he finished the king with the sword and other terrible things. Read the book called ''The bear of amarkath'' and then you'll see how nice Ulfric was. He killed nords,women and children if they refused to join him.For a ''nice'' guy,he's pretty messed up

A duel isn't murder. It's the custom of Skyrim's hierarchy. Then the Imperials came in and arrested him for something perfectly legal because they don't have a understanding of Skyrim, at all.

Nope, it's a Civil War. That's what they refer to it as in-game as well. My understanding of foreign occupation would be something like Cyrodiil v. Skyrim, but it's clearly Nord v. Nord just as often as it's Imperial v. Nord. Most Loyalist Nords seem to believe in the cause, it's not because they're hired mercenaries or anything, they just realize that Skyrim is better off remaining loyal to the Empire despite the current hardship.

I'm not saying they're hired mercenaries, just that nords are in the army because they were short on men and recruited people who sided with them. Yes, it is a civil war, but I'm talking about the fact that they are occupying half the holds or maybe all of them( depending on your decisions)

Just to be clear, I wasn't denying the fact that it was a civil war, just that it was also an occupation by foreigners.

The empire is not one man while the stormcloaks are.

Oh, I guess an emperor wouldn't count for whatever reason , then.

Ah, ok. Then yeah, it is partly a foreign occupation because the Imperial Legion is there assisting the loyalists.

this whole thing is based on northern ireland...... for those who dont know the fighting was irish vs irish not english the army came in as a peacekeeping force and actual fought with both sides they were basicly gangs that got out of hand ... you have the loyalists who are irish people who consider themselfs british proteststant and you have the ira who is a minority but wishes to be independant and is catholic..... the irony is most of britain bar nothern ireland is atheist

The political situation of the civil war in Skyrim is quite a tricky mess. It is absolutely, one hundred percent a mess.

Ulfric Stormcloak: charismatic leader, Jarl of Windhelm, former legionairre who fought against the Dominion in the Great War. His goal: to stop having Nords fight on distant fields of battle for an Empire that, in his mind, has lost all honor by signing the Concordant, thus making it so his brethren could not openly worship Talos. Ulterior motives: want of power, though to what gains is to be seen.

Empire: they're a bit tricky. It tends to work quite well by doing several things as a force ingrained into multiple lands. You will always have auxillaries fighting for your force, and is advantageous to use them from the indigenous population as they know the land and know how to live in the climate. Now, take into another factor that, we will say that half of the legeionairries are cyrodilic and half are Nord in Skyrim, would it not be nearly the same in Cyrodil and, perhaps, High Rock? Skyrim is one of the major recruiting grounds for the Imperial Legion, and just listening to conversations or talking with people around the province confirms that many Nord have fought for the Empire outside of Skyrim.

To conclude for now: I could argue about this all day from both points of view for any character, but the fact of the matter is Bethesda could have given a short intro movie before the character found his/herself in the back of the carriage explaining about The Great War and the White-Gold Concordant. Something that big, I'd like to point out, would be common knowledge by the time the character tries to make it across the border into Skyrim rather than throwing you into the world and not having any idea of the current major event for the last few years of all of Tamriel. A slight oversight if I may say so, which I'm sure someone will differentiate in opinions with me about that soon....

I see it closer to a revolutionary war of some sort. It's not exactly like America/Britain but it is similar to that in that Tiber Septim conquered all the countries and made them into his Empire, and now they're all breaking apart. Although it is confusing as hell considering Tiber Septim was a Nord and the Nords still worship Talos (him).

"Not right" by what moral standard?

The writers have to start somewhere, and the game world offers you every opportunity to join either the Stormcloaks or the Imperial Legion.

Because it's a biased choice "Would you like to join a group that tried to kill you for no reason, or join a group that is trying to kill the people that tried to kill you for no reason?"

You were caught in an Ambush that captured Ulfric Stormcloak - I think it's pretty reasonable of the Empire to have you executed as a potential Stormcloak sympathiser, given as you were caught "with" them. Lucky for us Alduin shows up. And, we're lucky that Hadvar attempts to stand up for us.

What was her problem anyways? I hate to say it but she seemed more like a cartoon character than anything else. The permanent scowl didn't help either.

I know people are saying 'she's shows corruption among the empire' but I don't really see it. Did I miss some side lore? Did she sleep her way to Captain? What is it. o_O

Honestly if they had given her a bit more to say after I made my elf, "He could be a spy..." "He was with them..." "He could be an accomplice!", it would have added so much more to the intro.

Hadvar being such a nice guy, like a really nice guy, like super duper nice, you could give him a hug nice, is just so jarring when you take the whole intro into account.

I have a suspicion that it went through a few re-writes before we got, what we see here.

All this talk of customs and legality would be allright, if it wasn't for our Johnny Rebel using a freaking Thu'um in a supposedly traditional Nord duel. I sense some double standards here. :biggrin: