BRO, bro just no. Rift has like 250k subscribers and is still chugging along with no signs of slowing down. No idea on EVE's numbers, and I would be highly surprised if EQ still had more than a mil over the last few years.

Nope. My point actually is that these games need to be released with a payment model that supports the design and overall strength of the game. SW:TOR couldn't sustain itself with its arsenal of absolutely nothing and the Star Wars name. If a game is small, it doesn't need alot to keep it afloat. SW:TOR was designed to be huge but was actually not, and thus tanked horribly.

Seriously how do you do that bad with a name like Star Wars? I could produce a deuce in a box and slap a Star Wars label on it and probably make enough to go buy a nice dinner to produce my next big product.

just forget it. Let's agree to disagree and drop this.

oh, and you fail because of developer, not the game. SW:toR did not fail, but the company that made it failed in the development of the game.

Sounds good to me, buddy.

FFXI had at least an average of 150k subs over like what.. 11 years? (And I'm sure you've never heard of FFXI) 750k was their peak, what was SWTOR's peak subs? Even without comparing success to WoW, SWTOR face planted hard.. terrible game, even for a star wars fan. I could probably go pick up S. Korea's subs somewhere if you want me to pull out a few more successful MMOs with subs like Aion, Blade&Soul etc.

Not a fault of the game, but the development of it. SW:toR is a good game, but Bioware is not an MMO company and could not hack making an MMO.

I admit BIOWARE failed making the game, but the game itself is a good one. It just needs a new company to take over.

Oh man, I totally forgot FFXI. Which is sad because I played it for a few years. That game is also still subscription based with a whopping 75k or so subs. Alllll these years later. Sorry man, but some games can cut it and some can't. P2P is the way to go if you make your game the right way.

Err.. so if the development failed, how was the game not bad? A game is made from development.. are you talking post-launch or..? What exactly are you defending again?

I played it, stopped after a very tiny bit.

like with Carde, lets agree to disagree and maybe compromise with B2P for basic content (Casual players) but Sub if you want the full experience.

I hated the game, personally. Not sure why its so successful but its a perfect example for my arguments.

Oh don't do this. I won't relent on B2P either, homeskillet. I could go on and on about how GW and GW2 aren't very good games either, but they were designed intelligently for their selected payment model which is B2P and why it works for them and how the content is shoddy compared to P2P.

Like seriously, broheim. I've got more in the clip.

I really wish I had gotten into the FF series sooner.. I've known about it for at least a good 8 years when I was at a friends house and was immensely interested in it yet never asked to play it yet never ended up pursuing because I was a kid who was broke and only had a PS1 and not a PS2. Oh well, at least I have plenty of time to go back and play them all .

Did you like the FF franchise? I can understand why you wouldn't like it if that were the case. Even then, there were some fairly different elements to that game that might alienate some FF fans.

what do you all think of B2P for basic leveling content, and sub for the full experience?

Maybe.. I've seen some fantastic models like that (Lotro - though it wasn't B2P, it was more of a fair F2P model while leveling + sub for the good content). Tera is another good example, their cash shop is pretty much just cosmetics, and everything needed in-game that F2P would want in the cash shop can be bought from the box copy of the game for founders status. Their overall approach to F2P was very refreshing - there's no difference in leveling between F2P and P2P, nor were there leveling zone restriction, yet still had enticing ways to get people to spend money w/o being game breaking.

Yeah I was an FF fan up until around FFX, and won't go any further with it from there to stay on topic. FFXI had alot of good ideas, but the game just rubbed me wrong. I also didn't have 16 hours of boss fighting in me at all.

So, if the devs chose that route of compromise, you would be okay with it?

If the game is designed with this pay model in mind, sure. But I hope TESO doesn't do that because the game is sizing up to be far bigger than that can reasonably sustain them, and the game will fall into ruin if they do it. B2P is the same boat as F2P imho, just with a few small differences.

TESO will be B2P to start playing, and then P2P to continue going, and B2P expansions. They'd have to cut back on alot of development and upkeep to go any other route and the game will suffer.

Haha fair enough, I haven't tried the game myself and I'm by no means an old FF fan. You're right, let's not go off-topic, I could probably go on forever.

I want to live in a world where WoW does not sets the standards for MMOs. Or at least it ceases to be the very first reference.

There are plenty enough people who would rather pay on a monthly basis to avoid in game hypermarkets, advertisemant, and a flood of people who just play casual tourists.

On another note, there are good if not great F2P titles out there, and they are getting better each year.

Even in countries where the GDP on average is pretty low. Cough.. east-central europe... people would pay for quality content updates, and such in form of a subscription.

Say I can try the game and I find it much fun, I can even convince a couple of friends to play on Friday nights with ESO. I'd not mind grabbing one years sub for $100.

You forget the most important thing of the current genre and its Blizzard Titan. Ive noticed it the world outside of WoW is little bit more active, but yep ironically Titan is gonna sweep the table. Everything is irrelevant. Its just how the industry is gonna play it, best would be make a fresh start from Titan. Everyone is gonna play Titan and better success for other devs this time.

I don't know, I'd have to know their overall approach to adding content in the game afterwards, and know how good the game is to judge how well that type of model might work. I think ESO has the potential to create its own type of payment method, but I'm not at all discouraged by a 15$ sub, but I will stop subscribing at a moments notice if they turn the wrong way down the road and will end my relationship at that. The reason I like B2P/F2P models is so I can be a casual, but for a game like ESO, I'll more than likely go hardcoe - there's rarely been games that spark my interest enough.. maybe it's my ADD?

There's still a few years before that happens (if it happens), ESO could already be well-established by then and remain relatively unaffected by Titan.

The economy seems to be heading in the F2P and B2P MMO region right now...

It was rumoured for Q4 2015?

So announcement should be this year.

Titan basically starts round 2. Thats what I believ anyway. Zenimax should just maximize their profit and I blieve its still in subs.

Blizzard is an unstoppable machine with their limitless funding from WoW. Titan will get made, and it will sell like the hotcakiest hotcake you've ever seen, but whether the game will svck or not is yet to be determined. Read the WoW or D3 forums and you'll see clearly that people are pretty jaded with the decisions they make with their development as of late. I hear that they're even trying to screw up StarCraft lately too.