erm, who else can hack now then?

i used to think ops were useless when defending but after seeing some good use of EMP to stops hacks i changed my mind. i have a med/op char and always went medic when defending, i might mix it up a bit now

Why would you need to hack on defense? Medics and Engineers have a use on attack and defense. Soldiers fall in the same boat as Operatives, except they can also give you ammo, which is a huge plus on maps like Security Tower on Defense first part, where you can't get access to a command post.

The main function of the op apart from the objectives is to delay and distract the enemy from the objective. The op class isn't about collecting points by spamming buffs. Anyone can do that. A good op leads enemies away from an objective, giving their team time to finish the mission. Engineers can lay down mines and turrets but the op can disable and hack them. There is nothing better than watching enemy engineers placing their turrets together, its like a little present to us ops

I know right?? i love hacking turrets and making people think its still just patrolling for the enemy lol

Messing and slowing down the enemy can be done by any class although the Operative can do it better, but the thing goes down to this. It is easier said then done by just simply stating aside from objectives. This game is all about the objectives. That is why I'm saying the operative exceeds at lone wolfing, but lone wolfing gets you absolutely no where.

You are able to win on Defense on EVERY MAP with a team of 8 engineers, but you won't be able to do squat on defense with an Operative. And even on attack you only get a small hacking objective on 4 of the maps, while the engineer even has a role on attack on 3 of the maps.

The Engineer has too many roles objective wise and needs to be split up between the Operative. Give the Operative the role of dehacking the enemy's hack objectives.

+100 for ops on dehacking! you can have engineers on bombs

Operatives De-hacking is a wonderful idea... makes more sense if you ask me

So its not just me?

Well, you asked what an op does and i gave you an example of how i, or any decent op would generally play that class. Its really not that difficult. However. if your idea of playing Brink is to camp objectives, buffing all the other engineers for cheap xp, then no, the op class will never be for you. As an op i have never found any map impossible to win on whether as defence or offence. Your superior teams of engineers can be sent straight back to their spawn quite easily by my caltrops, grenades and glorious suicide bomb. More to the point if i was playing in a pub match and came across the same kind of sneery, superior attitude as yours. I'd switch teams and show you exactly what its like to be "messed" with by an op.

As Balance goes, the Classes ARE balanced, sure you could say having a whole team of Engies makes for some work to be done, but the same could be said about having a whole team of Medics.

I've had games where I'm dutifully defending a spot and doing quite well with my wingmen, encountering 4 Medics and NOT BEING ABLE TO KILL THEM, one goes down, gets up, kill the Reviver and the Revive-ee and they both get insta-Revived by a third all the while the forth is hanging back and buffing everyone. Sure the Limit on Pips would stop them eventually, but that's still a lot of effort focused on only half the damn team ya'know?

But really, if it can be abused, people will abuse it, no amount of tweaking, nerfing, powering up etc is going to stop SOMEONE from finding something else to abuse. As it stands if a whole defending team is piling up Turrets like they are going out of fashion, a single EMP or Grenade will generally knock them offline anyway. Hey, if you're well trained in Operative-ism hacking a turret behind where the enemy is standing and then setting off a lucky EMP or even standard Grenade before you're murdered, will do the job in a jiffy.

There are solutions to all problems in situations like that, the list is near endless. It's what makes this game great for me, the need to tactically find victory through adversary.

You missed the point entirely what I meant by that. What I was saying was every defense mission "requires" an engineer to succeed, since it is the most direct objective oriented class. Medics can revive each other as much as they want, but if it is a team full of medics and the enemy manages to put a single charge on that pillar, it is game over. Engineers aren't chumps that can only defuse bombs, they also have weapons buffs and other stuff like mines and turrets. By going along with your logic I can say that engineers can simply place mines and turrets everywhere making it impossible for the enemy team to invade + they can buff their own weapons so that medic team of yours can never outshoot the engineers team. .,,, and + they are able to defuse the HE bomb if it manages to light up, oh how unlikely it may be. See? I can go off on that tangent as well. Abuse is abuse, but then there is smart abuse. There's a reason why you don't see your medic team spammed on every defense map, but yet you see a good amount of engineers being used in reality.... and even when there is not a spam of engineers, you'll hear someone on the mic complaining that the team doesn't have enough of them.

*Reminder I am still talking about defense here.*

I mean sure the Operative can knock out the turret and mines with his emp grenade... but then what? Dance around the charge site as the time ticks down?

drooling at the prospect of going up against a team of 8 engis.

but seriously: anyone who has played operative a bit can probably think of a lot of ways having 1* on a defending team is more help than harm. coms hack is such an underrated skill on D....I've been fully converted (to see it's utility) in some 5v5 comp settings matches. (thx SnXY50!). Add in the obvious utility of setting up caltrops/sticky bombs as an early warning system on the corridor you're not watching, or hitting a ticking charge (or rolling bot) with an EMP to slow it down, etc etc. throw in the ability to hack any turrets you come across and spotting mines as needed? golden.

*big caveat. it can be annoying when your team has too many operatives and no one switches, but just as annoying as not having any, b/c i hate getting hit with a mine b/c no one spotted it, or wasting bullets on a well placed turret when someone could have hacked it...and again...on defense...coms hack ftw. (especially on maps like reactor or terminal that are smaller)


that all said, i dual spec my characters for a reason (i have an engy/op and a sol/op) and tend to focus on operative when there is an objective or a situation that would benefit from it, which is dynamic across matches...

as long as the wep buff is in the game soldiers are slightly underpowered. Their usefulness is situational, but they should be at least as good in a straight firefight as any other class.

engis can buff soldiers weapons, soldiers ammo eliminates kevlar buff, soldiers have their own kevlar built in, and their grenades are more powerful. i would say they are better in a straight firefight.

To Assume makes an Ass out of U.... and yeah just you. I was giving the Medic Scenario as another example of abusing a particular class, not as a means to WIN WIN WIN BY GOD MAN WIN GRRRRRR!!! Calm yourself.

I've stated in a Thread before *plug* http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1206757-beardys-opinion-on-class-usefulness/ *plug* that Engineers are the most useful in winning a match in Brink, I'm not disputing that. I was replying to a comment about Class Balance and the Abuse of Game mechanics therein though, NOT who would "WIN WIN WIN". Engineer Abuse is common but also easy to get around. A whole team of Engineers can't Revive eachother, Give away enemy positions or restock ammo easily. Even with buffed guns and Kevlar, a single Flashbang and single wave assualt would smash them from a balanced team of GOOD players who don't feel the need to limit themselves to one class.

And when your Operative dances, your team members with their other classes Win and join in.

Op dance FTW? Ziondelhamorte=Operative

Yes but the medic does not have a primary objective to complete a match. Yes they help in a fight but i can always respawn! But soldiers get to blow up a target as an objective. Engies defuse bombs or fix an object. Then ops have to hack something. There is only two instances through the campaign where medics are needed to complete a mission / match, the hostage rescues. Medics need more of that kind of involvement.

+ 100

Medic Escorts are some of the most interactive primary objectives of any game. And THEY ARE needed for that primary objective. (So basically i've blown your argument out of the water.)

However, if you don't think Medic's don't have enough involvement, you must have never played with a good medic. (Or acted as one.) Medic's are constantly helping out team mates on the battle field, and they can be vital in winning some objectives due to a solid defense. Just because it isn't their objective to hack something, it doesn't mean that them reviving two operatives isn't insanely useful. It's not like giving invincibility to a soldier can be useful for them to plant a bomb.

They have plenty of utility and involvement. It's like saying Soldier's are useless in terminal because they don't have a objective there. People giving me ammo is always nice.

This i agree with..my main used to be a medic and ive run matches were i felt we needed more meds or got that great sence of satisfaction from buffing a soldier with adrin for the plant lol

i've never played a match where I've said "we have too many medics" or "we have too many soldiers"
i've definitely played matches where I've said "we have too many operatives" or "we have too many engineers"

chaos isaac it was never usefulness as the argument. All classes match per match are useful. It was strictly on topic, balance. I feel the other classes have more primary or secondary objectives than a medic and for that the game / classes lacks balance.


So no sir you did not blow me out of the water nor did you sink my battle ship, now go fish

So good it made my sig lmao

You still don't get what I'm talking about which in turn "The ass is u" since I was giving the Engineer scenario as an example of abusing a smart class compared to just abusing any class on defense. I never said a team full of engineers is a guaranteed win. I simply said that my scenario would be better then yours example wise. Of course a good mix of classes is a whole lot better, I never disputed that. You are not preaching anything new to me or to anyone else.

Of course a team of engineers can't revive each other >_>....

I mean all you were saying in your example was that a team full of medics are able to be annoying by utilizing their class abilities to the fullest. Well what I was saying a team full of engineers can be equally annoying by utilizing "THEIR" own class based abilities... PLUS PLUS they can actually defuse the objective.

And what is this about limiting to one class? I thought we were all talking about examples here of particular scenarios of class spamming.

Secondary Objective for medics: Revive your team mates.
Funnily enough that it's in every map.

I really don't see how it's 'unbalanced'. Medics are never a situational class, they're always appreciated.

I also don't see the need to try and force in a unneeded extra objective to distract my damn medic from picking me up after a heavy firefight as we fight on for the objective. I mean, it's counter productive.

If you really want to go for 'class balance' the Engineer needs a pretty big redo. Strip down a few of his abilities and objectives and pass them around to the other classes. (Operatives getting the Dehack capability. Soldiers instead having a single optional upgrade for extra damage. Etc.)