Yes, it all depends on perspective. That's what I said. Each faction operates by it's own philosophy, and will morally justify their actions based on that. No faction, including the Legion, considers itself immoral.

Sorry I misread your post stating that you thought they were clearly immoral.

Late at night and I'm malnourished,

I think all this talk of good and evil (even by some developers!) show how "tainted" the cRPG business has become from previous games where alignment was a large part of it, namely D&D games and stuff like KOTOR.

Like someone says, I think it will be more a question of philosophies here, and that the wasteland is just not like the civilization we have today. Caesar's Legion may be ruthless but perhaps that ruthlessness is necessary in order to at least start a successful civilization in the wastes. The ends justifying the means is usually not a popular type of thinking today but in the wasteland it may be for the better.

At least that's how I hope CL will be. Like someone said, if there truly is no redeeming quality about the way the Legion works, then it'll take a lot of depth away from the factions all-together. I don't want to design my characters by going "is this character good or bad?", I want to design them more in line with "just how much is this character willing to sacrifice? Just how far is this character willing to go?"

The way I see Caesar's Legion is this. If you want any stability or "normalcy" you might have to make some tough decision's to get there. You need people in order to rebuild, in Caesar's own way he thought slavery was the best option. Maybe after the rebuilding he will release them. But at the same time how many lives were lost in order to complete this goal. For me, these guys are still a gray zone, I find slavery horrendous but I do see why one would take this course of action in order to get workers to rebuild. He could of asked nicely but really, wouldn't the wasteland just tell him to just shove off? There are some people who don't simply care at all about rebuilding or anything really. He could see his use of force as an necessary evil in the grand scheme of things.

What I'm trying to say is. Nobody came to power in the world by playing nice or getting things done for that matter.

Have you watched the HBO tv-series "Rome"? On my second playthrough, when I'll align myself with the Legion, my character will almost certainly be based on the character http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erastes_Fulmen. While he's certainly a ruthless businessman and influential leader of the underworld, he's also shown to have some very admirable qualities. He certainly considered himself a very upstanding citizen. Come to think of it, the same applies to many of the characters in The Sopranos.

I wonder how far they'll depict the Roman image in the wasteland?

Will women be kept in the house and accompanied. Wonder if they'll allow the tribes they've taken over to continue their lives but must offer their sons to the army in times of war and of course taxes.

Might not be much, but would like to see some dialogue about how they mirror the Roman Empire.

Yeah I've seen Rome before 'twas pretty good. I see all factions as this both good and bad. They can be brutal but also very friendly people are unpredictable things. I'll probably be on my own first playthrough, trusting only yourself has some benefits.

Women lose in this game

CL- Women are nothing more than a gloating thing and held 'inferior'
House- Women will have to stay in the kitchen
NCR- Women are made to fight in the field.

(This is a joke in case some slowpoke wants to rage at this post. :rolleyes: )

Well......it is based on the 50's.

I can imagine Mr.House yelling to a woman in the next room wondering where the hell his meal and then hits her for it not being down to the EXACT detail.

Yay 50's!

Its a zinga!

Least in the NCR the men and woman can fight and die on equal terms.

Mr. House thinks woman belong in the kitchen, but he also believes Fisto belongs in the bedroom.

Yeah I'll go with NCR or CL anyday. :bolt:

Odds are the women will be more this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKEZbgaqJWo. Warning, NSFW due to language.

I don't think so. If you look at the 'Faction' trailer, you can see that Caesar wants Mr. House to be 'taken out of the picture' and if your standing within the leagion is high enough, he will hire you to assassinate Mr. House. Hardly seem like a the good guys in his eyes.

Well... but NCR was founded by and had a women served as their first president.

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/2494/65094.jpg



True, but http://i53.tinypic.com/2hqw086.jpg was taken during one of their recent operations.

I speculate that CL represents personal freedom and individuality, as opposed to the collectivism of the NCR. How do slavers represent personal freedom you ask? It's not that complicated. The Legion represents personal ambition unencumbered by things such as laws, morals, or ethics. The Legion will tell you that the strong prey upon the weak. That's part of nature and can't be disputed. Strength is a personal choice. People either choose to be strong or they choose to be weak. The weak know that they strong will inevitably dominate them, and yet they choose to be weak anyway. You don't ant to be dominated by another? All you have to do is choose not to be weak and to be strong. In order to be strong one has to look at the world and determine the nature of strength and weakness and what it takes to be strong. The strong person does not make judgments concerning what is necessary to become strong. The nature of the world determines what is necessary and if you want to be strong you adapt accordingly.

That's what the Legion does. They see the wasteland for what it truly is, not what it could be or should be. They see what is necessary to become master of it. The poor fools whom they capture as slaves knew the risks of being weaklings and chose to be weaklings regardless. If you aren't strong enough to protect your own life and freedom then you don't deserve it. If a person is strong enough to take your life or freedom from you he's more deserving of it. The Legion allows people to reach their highest potential without having idiots and weaklings hold you back.

I think it's closer to the Fascist collectivism of Mussolini, where the thugs in power subjugate and oppress others into obeying the will of the Caesar. They deny personal freedom and individuality to anyone not physically strong enough to take it by brute force. Even if you're physically strong, you'll only be kept alive as long as you don't question those above you. That sounds more like chains, than freedom, to me.

I don't know how well the New Californian Republic protects individual rights, but it's a fair bet that they do so to a far greater extent than the thugs of the Legion. I think it's very likely that individualists will take the individualist approach though, by not joining either faction.

I strongly doubt this as Caesar comes from the group Followers of the Apocalypse, which is a peace loving group, that thinks that people need to learn from their past mistakes and that's why history and knowledge are important to them. I think that Caesar still has these ideals, but as he learned about ancient Rome he saw a new way to enforce these ideals and sees slavery as a way to put the unwanted and harmful individuals to good use, instead of just letting them wreak havoc.

I think that CL doesn't know jack and [censored] about ancient Rome. They just half-assedly copied the Roman ascetic and decided to shout badly-butchered Latin phrases in order to add some sort of legitimacy to their [censored] and pillaging. Their (non-canonical) entry at The Vault wiki portrays them as having more in common with the Mongols than the Romans. The legion is a semi-nomadic army that exists independently of any location. There is no Legion "capital" or "homeland". They're an army without a country that takes what they want when they want from various subjugated settlements that are within whatever territory the currently claim.