I made a topic like this before release, but now that the game is out.. I NEED TO FREAKING KNOW. Are they bad or not? I have not exactly found out how to start their missions yet.. because I have not really seen them in the game. Please no spoilers! But my main question is.. is it possible to do their missions AND be good? I play as a good guy.. but I don't really enjoy the NCR. My character does not like to affiliate with chumps... and the NCR has a mild chump atmosphere about them.

So please tell me.. is Caesars legion the "Enclave" of Fallout New vegas? From what I have seen in game.. the little I have seen.. they are indeed baddies

I've been wondering as well. I remember numerous interviews where te developers talked about how there are no clear-cut "good" or "bad" factions. However, it sure does seem as though they are. Caesar's Legion is clearly bad.

Depends on who you ask, and who you are (in the game).

*Its deliberately gray...

I really wish people would stop saying this... ITS CLEARLY NOT GREY.. It seems very much so that caesars legion is evil. Most NPC's in the game even say that. Also.. it seems if your character were to do the things they do you would receive bad karma.. which means they are bad right?!

Therefore Caesars legion is full blown bad?

Caesars Legion is grey-evil. Some things they do are pretty horrendous, but considering we're in a post apocalyptic wasteland where most crimes are capital, the Legion doesn't seem too evil comparatively. They're the most evil faction you can join up with, but the Caesar himself is actually a very intellectual person. I was almost tempted to join the Legion because of how convincing he was. I could definitely see people being able to rationalize joining Caesars Legion without being evil. As for the Karma you would gain for doing his quest, I'm not sure, didn't actually join him.

Caesars Legion are clearly the main bad guys in this game. Especially if you go to a certain town that I won't name and see what they did to it.

Most definitely. First of all, they are slavers. In Fallout those are the bad guys. Secondly, they rob and kill traveling merchants and caravans. Call me crazy, but that's bad too. Clearly bad . Not much grey area at all.

they way they want ppl to see it is if your with CL there good ncr and house are they bad and so forther so just depends on how you join but i will have 4 character 1 for each factions and my loner so i can see the big picture

I'm sorry I know you hate hearing this but Caesars Legion is definately a gray area. I'd like to say they are evil but they aren't entireley. They may keep slaves but they also enforce laws, treat eachother with respect, protect their citizens, and value loyalty above all else, they really are like the romans of old, a large not entirely pure but not evil army expanding their borders.

As for gameplay I doubt any missions for NCR or Caesars Legion will change your karma, only your faction standing.

How is this a question? Within the first 10-15 mins of the game I knew they were evil bastards the second I heard from npcs that they take people captive and make them into slaves...

SLAVES.

How is this a question? Slavery is perhaps the most disgraceful crime our species has ever committed... any organization that condones / uses slavery is inherently evil... no if and or buts about it.

this man is correct I feel..

Like I know the game is suppose to be morally gray.. but it caesars legion is clearly evil. I just seems like if I were to do their missions which may require me to enslave people(I don't know) then I will gain bad karma. Missions given by a group that nets you bad karma is obviously bad.


I don't mean to derail my own thread a bit.. but I have another question.

Does dynamite svck or is it just me? Especially the "Long fuse" dynamite... WTF IS THE POINT OF DYNAMITE WITH A LONG FUSE? also what are the uses of a time bomb and powder charge?

my character is explosives oriented

I wouldn't call them evil really. They do very evil and horrendous things, but the individuals themselves are not the devil incarnate. So in that respect it is gray. If you judge solely based on actions (which isn't a bad way to judge at all) then they are very evil, yes.

Think of it in terms of civilization 2000 years ago in Roman Times, and maybe it isn't so evil. Think of it in 21st century logic, and it is deplorable.

To avoid spoilers, I really can't say much, but I will say that Caesar's Legion harkens back to a old - very old - world sensibility about Crime, Punishment, and the Rule of Law. And given the Wasteland...I honestly cannot say they aren't ultimately right in their approach. Many of their acts are horrific and terrible (And not just their physical actions either), but have a brutally honest core of truth to them.

It really is a tough call. Terrible to behold? Absolutely. Evil? I cannot say for certain if they are or not. Because, for one thing, I can't say that if I were placed in an environment like that, I wouldn't do the exact same thing.

i dunno if their necessarily evil but.. i just picked up a sickass rastafarri dread lock helmet off some CL dude lol

IMHO, Yes and when I was killing them at the end of the game I got good karma for it so I assume the game feels they are BAD too.

I haven't installed the game just yet, but Caesar's Legion and NCR both have beneficial and detrimental actions no?

Socially misunderstood :shrug:

:P

The Legion's brand of beneficial actions tend to be of the permanent variety. I really can't say more without spoiling anything, but they are...extreme...in their methods.

It isn't an amazing weapon, but then again it's not supposed to be. It's the entry level of the explosives bracket, the equivalent of a 9mm pistol for guns or the laser pistol for energy weapons. Unlike guns and energy weapons however, explosives does have access to the three tiered demolitions expert perk which offers the chance to have a flat +60% to all damage by the time you reach level 10. No other weapons class has that kind of provision, especially not that early on. With +60% damage i'm sure dynamite would be a tad more useful. That said just like guns move on to large calibre or automatic weapons explosives has the grenade launcher type weapons on offer, along with had held frags for general use...and the idea of a +60% damange, +25% AOE (perk) fatman is more than enough for me to consider doing an explosives character in the future (secondary in energy or guns maybe).

Getting back to the Legion though...Their leader is an intelectual and a history buff and the organisation provides the illusion of stability, but that's all it is, an illusion. It's a self sustaining military apperatus that sustains its conquests and annexation through the subjugated peoples it conquers and annexes, its stability relies on constant agression. It promotes slavery, murders dissenters and reduces women to the status of pvssyl.

They're evil. The NCR aint perfect but it's still a 700,000+ stong organisation (not accounting for decades of population growth and expansion since FO2) with a democratic structure and a more reasonable set of ideals. If you've got your head on straight, that's where you support should fall.

hmmm, in our society today yes they would be considered evil, but in the game its a wasteland there are no set of laws (only what NCR chumps make) and well lets face it no one likes to be bossed around like NCR does they bully ppl CL just keeps them as slaves or kill them, in their mind they are riding the world of all the impurities, so u have to make ur own choice on what they are

I read in the guide I think and a review that theres no grey area.

You lose karma for killing NCR, and gain it for killing legion.

That should be a pretty big hint. That said, stealing stuff owned by evil characters you've killed will also loose you karma. I'd rather accept that we can reason the legion to be the bad guy rather than relying purely on the Karma bar.

Seriously, the earlier comment about CL being EXTREME is dead on. We are talking, Enclave extreme here. It simply isn't a grey area at all. Unless you considered the Enclave to be good.

Might be a bad comparison (My memory regarding FO3's storyline is foggy at best.)

The NCR however, is a bit more grey. Sure, they'll stand up to the CL, while implementing martial law.

So, I think the developers blew the 'grey area' thing out of proportion (Kind of like how they made survival sound important.) when it really isnt.

Karma is about good actions and evil actions.

C. Legion is an organization styled after a 2000 year old civilization, and performs a lot of evil actions, this is why negative karma is associated with them. CL & NCR effectively want the same thing, CL just go's about it in a much more ruthless manor.

Actually, the Enclave would balk at the Legion's methods.

Enclave would just put a Plasma Round between your shoulder blades and be done with you.