Surely when we sided with the vampires in volkihar castle we would have assumed that we're siding with harkon. Planning to block out the sun and all that creepy things we vampires do... But why is it then that when we get to the last part we just have to take him down......Surely it makes sense from the dawnguard point of view....And ofcourse you could say that harkon is not a very nice person and was just using you....But then I think thats when your speech skills and perks should come into play.... What if you do want to side with harkon... Block out the sun.... and after you kick his ass, you tell him that you wanna side with him to show that even though you could kill him, you're choosing to spare his life and join him then take over skyrim...AND I know i know that even if it ended in the same way with dawnguard and the vampire side, you'd still get that bow that shall not be named for the sake of spoiler reasons... and you can still choose to block out the sun with it but im just saying why cant we be the bad guy??? even though when we thought we were joining the bad guy side?? in the end we became good.... ..... kinda good?? we stopped him so i'd consider that something good... but just saying why cant we join harkon ????

Because Serana wouldn't like that! And Bethesda decided to make both questlines the same, without adding an option to join Harkon. When joining the vampire side, just think of it as you overthrowing Harkon's throne and taking power of the Volkihar. It'll make you look a little evil. Other then that, I agree. They should have added an option to join Harkon.

Personally I would've loved the option to block out the sun permanently. It's not like bethesda was going to make that the canon ending anyway.

This would allow the player choice and then consequence, this isn't allowed in skyrim.

Instead we have 2 'different' questlines that are really the same. I liked the DLC as a whole but the actual questlines were poor.

This topic should of been in the spoiler section.

ontopic:I don't agree with harkon but I do agree there should be more options for those who want it.

It didn't happen because Todd wouldn't let you, see how open ended roleplaying is getting so much better in this game!

Well.. first.. it IS a story, and complaining about choice is kind of silly--I mean, you want to discuss options in totality? Ok.

Alduin. Why couldn't we side with him and remake the world?
Why couldn't we help Ancano seize the eye?
Why couldn't we help Mercer?
Why couldn't we just claim the DB as soon as we walked in, if powerful enough?
Why couldn't we have claimed the companions as ours from the start, if poweful enough?
And on... and on..

It's a game with a story. If you want an honest-to-god open world, get together with some friends and play an insane game of D&D. That's about as "open" as you can get.

Okay fine lets get rid of dialouge options completely while we're at it, they only slow the game and leed to the same place anyway.

But haven't you rather confirmed what I was saying, roleplaying going backwards with Dawnguard adding icing to that. Not everyone can get together for a group to play D&D!

That is the problem. Skyrim is advertised as an RPG when it's an action adventure game. Even roleplaying something as vague as a "good guy" or "bad guy" in Skyrim is nigh impossible due to the way quests play out.

Thankyou, exactly that.

Why? Because as EVERY NPC in the game points out, that would be stupid. I guess BGS was banking on people actually getting this point after twenty or so NPCs explain (some at length) exactly why it's a stupid idea.

Ignoring the facts of "life as we know it" as they don't even come into play here. Let's just go with the obvious. A small vampire court exists off the north coast of Skyrim. Said vampire court blackens the sun to send all of humanity into a feeding ground. People say, "Aw, hell no." Immediately the Stormcloaks and Imperials, which outnumber the vampires about a bazillion to one on each side, call a temporary truce (shouldn't take more than a few minutes guys, then we can get back to killing each other) and storm the castle, ending the immortality of the "immortal" Harkon. And guess who's gonna die with him? Every last Volkihar on his side, of course. In fact, a whole vampire hunter cottage industry would grow up. There would be vampire hunter stores, vampire hunter guilds, vampire hunter underwear, vampire hunter lunchboxes, all over Nirn until the sun came back. Seriously? You want to pull a Harkon? Just go to Whiterun, strip nekkid, run up to the nearest guard and punch him square in the face. When he asks you if you'll give up, tell him you'd rather die and then stand there and let him do it. Essentially, this IS what Harkon is doing, suicide by cop.

Than the Dragonborn kills the attackers.

Realistically? This would be an unending stream of attackers, one after the other, tearing down the castle doors, literally thousands upon thousands. You REALLY think your character could stand against all of that when he/she is surrounded with no escape, no access to resupply, no timeouts to replenish magic/health/stamina?

I proposed something like this where the Dragonborn gets capture by the Thalmor, an unending stream until the Dragorn yields, or is killed. Would THAT be pretty cool? I think so. But a plot where there can be no quarter? AND, remember ALL of Tamriel, of Nirn, is united against the darkness. You could fight until you die, but that's about all you could do. This is clearly explained, in the story, over and over again, and makes perfect sense. Unless you think like Harkon, I guess.

I agree. In my first run through I was intent on joining the Vampires and really hoping that I'd be able to choose to join Harkon. I felt like I was actually stringing her along the entire time, and when we got the bow I'd give it to him, kill Serana and join the Volkihar with Harkon as my general. Alas...no dice :/

Seeing how Harkon and his clan are big on subtly, the castle is relatively unknown and even after the sun went red they'd still be unknown. I doubt they'd storm it in a day. It would take months to find assuming they could live long enough to capture a vampire and then keep it alive long enough to point the finger. And remember that the "blood sun" gives Vamps a really nice boost, so I doubt that many Vamps would be willing to rat since they'd be experiencing the best trip in their whole un-life. They'd be too busy tearing apart villages and settlements.
Assuming they did discover Harkon and the Castle in time to do anything about it, they'd have to fight past all the gargoyles in front and ME. (Or rather the PC ) I finished the Vampire side I gotta say that When I left, it was a tomb. And those guys are suppose to be Skyrim's elite-last-hope when it comes to Vampires.
Assuming they managed to get inside the castle, they'd have to wade through a small army of Vampire Lords on crack, and then deal with Harkon.

I'm not saying its impossible. The odds are just stacked against those that want to rise up.

Not so. If the DG already knows where the castle is (random attacks), then so does the rest of Skyrim and so would Tamriel. The vamps just aren't enough of a threat to claim all out war at the moment, but you can certainly bet one would squeal once put to the test after being captured (and townsfolk are killing them) and let the humans know from where the darkened sun originated. Not in a day maybe, but a week or month, sure. The only recourse, for the entire world, would be to descend upon Harkon's lair and gain the "cure", if there is one, or die trying. There is absolutely NO WAY a few VLs, pureblood or not, can stand against the onslaught of all of Skyrim, all of Tamriel, all of Nirn. How can that not be understood? That's an important statement/message in the story. No matter how strong an individual is, he can not stand against everyone else. Would it be nice to teach you that lesson the hard way? Absolutely, but nothing p's off a player more than to stack them up against an unwinnable war to an unwinnable conclusion. Only a small army of 10,000 would be more than enough against 12 vamps, dragonborn or not. Do you REALLY think you could stand against that many? Try it. No god mode, no cheats, just console them in 10 or 20 at a time and see how many rounds you can go, then you can say you "joined Harkon".

Well, Oblivion didn't let us side with Blackwood Company, we couldn't destroy the Dark Brotherhood with Mathieu Bellamont (though I am not sure how it would work out anyway), we couldn't join the Mythic Dawn and help Mehrunes Dagon. Skyrim isn't the only TES game that lacks some choices.

At least we can destroy the dark brotherhood in skyrim. The thieves guild should be next though >.>

There is to much chaos going on for the people of Skyrim to even really worry about the vampires did you forget about the dragons. the empire and the stormcloaks probably wasted most of there resources fighting each other. plus the people of skyrim are not to keen on the use of magic and VLs uses magic. Don't forget that vampires can raise there numbers with undead minions and replenish them. I just believe that could take over in the misdt of all this chaos.

So does that mean Bethesda should be exempt from criticism for being restrictive again and again?

Yes because thats how video games *&*&)$*) work. Look at ten thousand other RPG games and its just as restrictive. Dragon Age, Mass Effect, the old baldur's gate series. I'm sorry you expecting skyrim to be like these imaginary video games that are completely open ended. RPG games can be linear and have no character customization beyond equipment and names. Which was how it was for years in hundreds of RPG games.

We couldn't side with Dagoth Ur in Morrowind either. You can side with Harkon by giving him the bow he just betrays you because thats what evil Vampire Lords do they stab you in the back. If you have a problem with betrayal don't play a bad guy.

Because of this!

Key word being "if".
As I understand things Isran has no idea where the castle is, nor do any of the other DG members. Granted, I'm only half way through my DG-side play-through...so I don't really know the specifics of how it ends...but so far I (the PC) am the only one that knows. This conversation is assuming that the PC sided with Harkon. Isran and the DG still don't know where it is...and besides, if you take your actions in the Vamp side quests into account then I refer you to the quote bellow

...moving along...
I'm not arguing the story that was told. I understand the message. It was well told, and I enjoyed the adventure. Siding with Harkon is merely a third option that is worth at least exploring, and for it to fit the overall story would certainly need to be revised.

...an unwinnible war, mmhm, yes yes, I agree. That would anger a great many players. Bethesda is too smart to throw the PC into that situation without an exit for them. To do so would be...well...stupid for so many reasons that I'll not go over. Most of them involve $Money.
But I think perhaps you're underestimating Harkon's intelligence, and that of the other Vamps in his court. It would take time and movement for an army of 10,000 to amass. As Lord of Dragon mentioned, the Vampire Lords are exceptionally skilled at Necromancy. Bolstering their numbers wouldn't be an issue, maybe not to 10,000, but enough to make the army wade through something really nasty. [Edit: I can banter back and forth about tactics in later posts. ]

Point I'm trying to make is that it "could" be done. It's a possibility, if there were an Option #3 and Harkon had his way. I give you a for your tenacious optimism.

Something to consider--- Eventually Bethesda WILL make another Elder Scrolls game. And in that game- the sun WON'T be blocked out, so in order to have that happen- Harkon could NEVER succeed and the sun could never be permanently blocked out.

Besides, there's a difference between evil and stupidity. Harkon's want to block the sun is utter stupidity, even in vampiric standards. Serena's mother understood that.

Well maybe then I could have put Valerica's mind to rest earlier in the game and told her not to worry because TES 6 will come out one day and the sun can't be blotted out for that. I could have also told Delphine not to worry about Alduain because the world can't be destroyed or else there could be no future TES 6.

Does it really matter how the game ends for each person? The game is played individually so each person can take from it what they will, If people want to do something stupid like blot out the sun fine let them do that and let their character deal with the consequences, like say after 50 more game hours you tire of the sun no being there - your problem. If TES 6 comes out with the sun is not blotted out is it going to kill imersion from the beginning because 4 years ago I blotted out the sun in TES 5?

I played Oblivion and enjoyed it, I took certaint things from that game, but TES 5 is as different a game as much as TES 6 will be different again.

When I started I thought I was joining him, I was happy... Then I realized I was being shoehorned into siding with the "good" guys. Horrible choice, Every time his annoying ass daughter gave me the option I'd choose the dialogue that was siding with Harkon but she'd just force me into the next quest saying NO YOU CAN'T DO THAT, HE'S A BAD MAN! Stupid.