None of the Elder Scrolls games from Arena onward were EVER hardcoe RPGs. At best, they were games aimed at simulating life in a fantasy world. And Skyrim does that just fine. In some ways better than the other games, in some ways worse. I still find Oblivion to be the most shallow of the ES games.

Casual is as casual does. In the "I" of the beholder. Skyrim allows those who want a casual experience to have it. It also allows the freedom of a RPS experience. It's all in how YOU choose to play it.

All of these nicknames "casual" and "hardcoe" it's all getting kind of confusing.

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

I, for one, will make any mods that haven't been made already by the time I have Skyrim for PC to make it the game I want. It's clearly what Bethesda has expected from TES ever since Morrowind made GOTY, or they wouldn't push glitchy half-finished games out the door.

I'm also one of those that considers Skyrim a good game in spite of having a few complaints. One of those is that because it does cater to casuals and because so much of the community simply [censored]ed about Oblivion and exploits in it, many features I enjoyed were cut. Another is that it was pushed out half-finished, but I expected that anyway so it's not as bad.

Skyrim was dumbed down, A LOT, i started playing Oblivion and the difference is noticeable, after 15 minuts of gameplay.
So in skyrim:
No leg pieces for armors.
Unbreakable objects (that's not better)
Not being able to grab anything else than bodies and objects.

and many other thing's i've not seen yet. but in 15 minutes of gameplay, 3 major (negative) differences

I copy paste from some pretty old comment ( I actually saved it !)


Acrobatics was already an EXTREMELY useful skill in Oblivion. There was an entire alternate play style possible with maxed speed and acro, jumping over enemies' heads, leaping out of reach to snipe them, skipping puzzles in the Oblivion Gates by surviving leaps from fifty-storey towers or by skipping across lava. It was a really neat skill without being overpowered, and wasn't glitchy like in Skyrim.

Then they lolditched it to consolidate skills and dumb the game down for the casual gaming crowd, along with running speed (athletics), unarmed, mysticism, thaumaturgy, medium armour, unarmoured, all the perfectly sensible attributes, luck, situations where luck matters, spellmaking, logical enchanting, most options in conjuration, armour pieces (I know there is a technical reason for this one at least), and reputation with factions and in general. Let us all have a moment of silence for all the dozens or even pairs of things we have lost since Morrowind due to catering to a more casual-gaming crowd.

And this, my friends, is why hard- and mid-core gamers hate casuals.

I don't understand the reference?

I loved Skyrim, Oblivion, and Morrowind. And Fallout 3 and NV. I'm just trying to explain why Skyrim is called casual based on what I've seen around the forum.

Edit: ^^What IZsoul's post says.

His profile pic is from the Big Lebowski, unless I am quite mistaken. That's a popular quote from it. Good movie, might be a bit squicky for some people but I'd suggest checking it out.

Oh I was quoting you ?
Well you had to do it first , this post is simply brilliant !

I knew I saw that post before...I just forgot who made it lol.

^^This. I miss my greaves. And my pants.

Kill cams add any RPG elements? It's an added feature for the casuals. I am getting tired of shooting arrows that fly right past the target because of the latest update that frequently uses the arrow kill-cam.

Actually I just wish to disable them ENTIRELY.

The people who make such comments overlook the things that have been added. Perks, new spell effects, crafting skills, enhanced combat systems, NPCs who can actually mark your destination on your map, roleplay mechanics (for example marriage and cooking), killcams, and enhanced character creation are just a sample of new things added since Morrowind.

But then again, I'd never even heard of TES until Skyrim. Perhaps I'm just a 'casual' whose opinion doesn't matter.

I have NEVER been put in any position where a kill cam left me worse off.

Not knowing that an iron dagger wouldn't work and being killed isn't learning, that's called being punished. Games shouldn't punish the player for not knowing something.

Personally, I prefer Skyrim over Morrowind BECAUSE it tells you things before you needlessly die from them. Its called introducing a mechanic. Morrowind did none of this and expected you to know before hand or mete-game to find out.

I like the kill cams. Been playing since Morrowind too. So am I a casual player? No, not really. I simply like a feature they added to the game. You clearly don't. Thats called a difference of opinion, not a "cheap thrill".

As for making money, no crap they want to make money, but does that mean they cant change how they see their games? Its evolving AND money making. Yes, greed and beneficial actions CAN come together.

EDIT: Sorry, most of that was unnecessary. Nitpicking is rude and a bad habit of mine. I'll leave these three bits though.

Perks are good. I love perks. I've actually said to myself, "Man, I wish I could combine a full skill and attribute system, optional point-based perks and a levelling system that involved distributing a fixed number of points across multiple attributes in one ES game."

How is the combat system enhanced? I'll let you explain that one, because I honestly don't see it. So either I'm forgetting something because it's late and I'm tired, or you're gonna say "KILLCAMS AND ARROWS FLY RIGHT." I agree archery was improved greatly, mind you, but that's all I can think of that got better.

Killcams are a detriment to the game on virtually every level, not a positive addition. It's been expressed why people dislike them. They are annoying, they are repetitive, they take control out of the player's hands for a good two to five seconds, sometimes more with archery cams, they make arrows miss, they make your magicka run down with focus spells, they can be interrupted, making you suddenly vulnerable to attack (the melee ones, I mean; If you've never had a killcam start then suddenly stop because your opponent moved during the slow-motion I'm honestly surprised), they are repetitive, they openly showcase how poorly the combat conveys impact by showing combat from an angle at which you can see the sword clearly never touch the opponent, and they are repetitive. I can say without any trace of doubt that they are my least favourite "feature" in this game. The only ones that are even fun to watch, which is the whole point of killcams to begin with, are the unarmed ones and the ones you get versus dragons. Otherwise they are an annoyance, plain and simple.

And again, I love the game. I spend hours most days playing it. I don't agree with most people's complaints about it. But in this regard, it's taken a step backward, as each game in the series has (even people's precious Morrowind was worlds more casual than Daggerfall; Arena is so bad I don't even know where to place it, but it was a spirited first attempt).

I don't remember saying whether or not I liked kill cams, and opinions are irrelevant here. The OP asked what this game did to earn its label.

I told him that they tried to appeal to the masses in order to make money. You admitted yourself that this is true. How people react to the individual features isnt the topic of discussion. Obviously some old fans are going to like some stuff, and some arent. But that's not what I'm talking about.

I think because there are no classes, and the races are largely cosmetic so there's no decisions to make early on. You don't have to read the book or any class descriptions to decide what kind of character you want to be.

- Fast Travel and Quest arrow, you cant play without these as there are no detailed descriptions of how to find the location/person/item yourself.
- Less Weapons types that previous TES games had like: Throwing weapons, spears, shortsword, longbow/shortbow.
- Lesser Skills: Unarmed, hand to hand, mysticism, medium armor (Daggerfall had even more skills)
- Enchanting and spells is limited.

The list goes on.

See, the way some of the skills were consolidated between oblivion and skyrim I think would have been cool between daggerfall and morrowind. Knock all the languages into speech for one. Granted that would work better with a perk system anyway, but eh.

Quoted for truth.

Perks could work with attributes, but in my view the attributes would need to be revamped. New attribute, new mechanics, new ways for them to work. I tend to prefer Skyrim's perks to Oblivion/Morrowind's attributes.

Let's compare this to Morrowind. There's still a big character-skill aspect to it - damage per strike - but it's removed the annoying missing, despite the fact that an enemy is directly in front of you. Animations have been greatly improved since Oblivion, and the option to equip items to either hand has opened up many new opportunities. Magic has been varied - yes, we've lost many spell effects, but we've gained some and mechanics such as dual-casting have added variety to magic. This variation is also obvious in the new effects - constant stream spells, runes, walls and targeted spells, to name destruction's options. And yes, archery has been greatly improved as well. Stealth expanded upon Oblivion's sneak-attacks and crosshair - we can now tell when an enemy is aware of someone's presence, and perks allow us many new abilities with stealth.

Killcams are, in my view, Bethesda's attempt to 'shake up' combat a bit, and IMO they did quite a good job of this. Yes they can be repetitive, but I personally enjoy the variety of weapon animations, view angles and general 'moves' your character can perform. I've never had this problem with enemies moving - that said, I tend to play mage characters, so my chances of having this issue are reduced significantly. I've had one issue with an archery Killcam - it hit a wall just before the target - but other than that, my experience has been a pleasant one. I have no problem with losing control of my character, considering they only occur when the last enemy in a cell is killed. While I understand the reasons as to why some may not like them, I personally don't agree with these reasons. I genuinely think they add a lot to combat.

I don't consider it to be a step backwards - perhaps in some regards, but IMO it's taken two steps forward, one step back.


Yes you can - you can use your map.

It's a rubbish argument that proves nothing.
Yes Skyrim has more "Sturm und Drang" in it and is potentially more of a short term fix, whereas Oblivion is more of a slow-burner and a keeper.
...etc...

I get the feeling that the phrase "dumbed down" is being thrown around with rather too much abandon and little regard for it's meaning. for example: having less pieces for armour does not imply it's "dumbed down".

There are many differences between the two games and they do undoubtedly appeal to different gamer demographics at their core. Skyrim does have many things that are "differently implemented" for better or worse, but it's still a perfectly valid part of the TES canon and there is much to appreciate in it. Many arguments regarding the two, that are put forward as "fact", are simply expressions of personal taste and opinion - nothing more. Having said that, here's my tuppence-worth...

Having gone from Oblivion to Skyrim and back again, for me - (read FOR ME) - I find Oblivion to have more depth to it and a better atmosphere and feel. I prefer the base graphics - (I have significantly modded both games, but the starting point is more pleasing) - I prefer the soundtrack. I found the "reality" of Skyrim to be rather wearing after a while, Oblivion feels like somewhere different whilst Skyrim is just basically Scotland. There are other, technical, things that took the edge off it for me as well.
(And yes, I didn't understand the removal of acrobatics either...)
So I went back to Oblivion.
Did I not like Skyrim? Actually I liked it very much when I was playing it, it gave me many opportunities for some thoroughly enjoyable RP and story creation with Niamh and some bits of it were very impressive indeed. I played it for getting on for a couple of hundred hours I guess and got very into it whilst I was playing it.
I prefer Oblivion however, for me/us, it's a keeper.

Arguing about Skyrim is a bit like arguing about marmite, you can dissect how it's made and what it's made of all the way down to a molecular level if you wish and you can use that as an argument for why vegemite is better implemented, but at the end of the day whether you actually like it or not has no bearing on any of that - it's simply a matter of personal taste...
(And I like that anology, dammit)!

Comparing it to Morrowind? Well, okay, but Oblivion already fixed those issues. What we lack is some mechanic for dodging, which would give explicable weapon misses without dumbing it down to "there bad guy, hit with stick." I wouldn't say animations have been greatly improved, or that animations have anything to do with combat itself. That's like saying that since the graphics got better it's not catering to casuals and it makes up for features being removed. It just doesn't add up. Dual casting hasn't really added anything. It's a way to make the vanilla spells a bit stronger since you can't just make stronger spells, and combine two static spell effects at a time since you can't just create combined spells. Point taken on the new varieties of spells, yet I fail to see why anything had to be removed for this to happen. Personally, I welcome our wall of paralysis overlords.

Literally about one quarter of my shots with a bow hit a wall or shoot over the head, and this is without bullseye, because about half of them are killcams since my only archer is all stealthshots. And when I say lose control - Think of it this way. You're running down an hallway or across a plain, when suddenly you can no longer steer your character, the camera just circles in slow motion as your character continues running in one direction for several seconds. This happens about 10% of the time. Is this annoying, or cinematic? And even if it IS cinematic, is taht even a good thing in a game, as opposed to a cinema?

Overall, I feel the game is a step... Sideways. It's a different game than Oblivion, and mostly it's better, yet it's the first Elder Scrolls game I've spent periods bored of, so obviously they've upset the formula in some inherent way that doesn't fly with me. (Never got tired of Arena because it svcked from my first play. Getting tired implies you're not tired of it to start with.) I still say Skyrim > Oblivion > Morrowind, but you know what? In this regard it's more like ten steps back for every step forward.

EDIT: Marmite > Vegemite, deal w/ it

I guess i'm not hardcoe enough but it really makes no difference to me.

Damn straight.
Although vegemite's actually cheaper to buy, Marmite has a Special Resrve version so when I eat it I can feel Like A Sir.