How do you feel about Cinematic Finishers in gaming? Such as a grueling fight with a boss or enemy that closes off with a cinematic finisher that shows your character doing something outside the gameplay's possibilities. Maybe not dealing with the enemy in the specific way you wanted too.

Personally I kind of like them. In specific circumstances and when down correctly. I view them as a kind of reward. I'd expect them to have a cinematic quality to them though. Like higher quality graphics, better viewing angles and such in a cutscene. But I can see why some people might not like them because I know for some games I don't.

So what are your thoughts on this? Something that should be removed from games? Altered or improved in some way? What games have them and have done them right and what games could be better if they did or did not have them?

To start, if it's a first person game they should be performed in first person always. Second, there should be a chance of failure. I shouldn't be able to get within four feet of somebody and then instantly murder them with no potential for screwups. In general, I'd simply prefer they be more player controlled. A grapple button followed by the attack button, delivering a knife to the throat, for example.

They look great in games where they are done effectively. EG Max Payne. The other great thing about the MP ones is that you can skip them if you want to. I just think there should be a choice of whether to have them or not.

That sounds like a QTE. Ewww... I feel like QTE's make you miss the whole scene going on because you are mashing buttons.

What I meant by Cinematic finishers isn't some auto kill move of any sort. Simply what happens right after you get a boss or enemy to a certain point that they are dead or almost dead. Then a cutscene triggers to basically deal with them. Usually anywhere from 10-60 seconds long or more if there is talking.

I like it if it's well done.

That reminds me, I need to get back and finish Arkham Asylum.

Depends on the game. Open world, create your own character, non-linear style game like Elder Scrolls? No thanks.

FF VII, Diablo 3, GTA series? Great.

Not a QTE. QTEs are comprised of arbitrary timed button taps with no ties to what you're actually doing in the game. These are dedicated buttons: Click to grapple. From a grappling position you can then attack an enemy with your fist, weapon, throw them to the ground, etc. If you weren't grappling them, the same options would be available, but the enemy would be in a better position to avoid them.

I think that is what spawned this thread a bit. Playing Skyrim and kind of hating the finishers. Remembering other games that have done them well. I don't think it translates well into TES games.

As long as it's well done, I like it.

1. The longer finishers should only be done at the end of combat and not in the middle. This is the one thing I don't like about the Assassin's Creed series' combat system: if you get a long finishing animation during a fight with a bunch of guards, you wind up taking 5 seconds to stab a guy repeatedly while his buddies make you their punching bag.

2. They need to be well-animated and believable. Skyrim almost got it right, but unfortunately they wind up looking stiff or glitchy in certain situations. Assassin's Creed probably has my favorite ones, even accounting for the above. The animations are fluid and stylish, and they fit the theme of the game well.

3. Don't have it detract from combat, or if it does, give the player an option to turn it off. I turned New Vegas' cinematic killcams off within the first 10 minutes of combat because of how jarring it was.

Dont let Earthlinger know about this thread...

I like them, so long as they don't dominate the gameplay. A good example of them being well-implemented is in Human Revolution, IMO. They're quick, generally do what you want them to do, are incredibly awesome to watch, and don't break immersion. Well..most of the time. There are occasions where http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEbH-SzIs0c, and there's the fact that the less-than-lethal attacks are much more noisy than the game's AI thinks they are.

Too bad they came at the expense of the melee system in both previous games. I definitely draw the line there. If your killcam/takedown mechanics are getting in the way of what could have been real gameplay, then they should go.
Jensen's hearing is augmented. It only seems really noisy.

Cinematic finishers in Mortal Kombat is the best cinematic finishing.

To be fair, the previous two games had some pretty craptastic AI as well. You could literally put yourself in full view of an enemy in the first game, get him to caution state and then retract back into your hiding spot, going "Wut" as he assumes the heavily armed and cloaked man with sunglasses was him just seeing things. And taking down a guard next to another without attracting attention was a regular occurrence.

If anything, I find it funny how many of the series's trademark faults worked their way into HR (Even the mandatory boss encounters that felt out-of-place). Intentional or not, it's amusing. Bottom line, I'll take the fancy animations if the AI is still gonna be hit & miss. Might as well get something cool out of it.

Also, I wouldn't separate takedowns and "real gameplay". I mean, how are we going to come up with a way to make scenarios such as that above takedown without incorporating it into a command or two? How would you design takedowns and QTE-like gameplay sections without resorting to button commands? It would take an astronomically advanced controller, the superhuman ability to use it effectively, and the extreme cost to mass produce such a complex abomination. Games' budgets get higher and the animations get better, but it's very difficult to implement them in a more advanced fashion than simple button presses. It's just pointless to get mad over the feature itself. Rather, get mad over how much it's abused in certain games to the point where it's no more than an interactive movie. HR doesn't fall anywhere close to that, though.

Case in point: Why get mad over something like pressing a button and watching a 2-5 second takedown? Did you not approach a guard from behind in DX1 and press a button which activated the prod, baton, knife or sword attack? Did you not wait a couple seconds for him to drop, loot him, then carry his body? Can you not do this exact same thing in HR? The only difference is the quality of the takedown animation. It's something nice to look at, rather than just watching a guy fall flat on his face for the millionth time.

A flawed concept that has the potential to disorient the player and disrupt gameplay...if it's done wrong. And it frequently is. Only the Arkham series and SSF4 does it right.

Depends. If they can be done in a stealth setting right next to someone and they don't notice then they just come across as odd. If they are overused they become and annoyance and when first person pov games switch to third person finishers they can look tacky.

Dark Messiah Might and Magic got it right. Velvet Assassin pretty much got it right. DX HR not so much - they looked great but from a stealth perspective they were frequently out of place.

I liked Ninja Gaiden 2's

And Dead Space. It's fun to get killed in it

Ah yes, cinematic gore at it's finest

No strong feelings one way or the other. They can be cool and I can't remember ever being put off by 'em, but they're pretty much nonexistent on my wishlist of features.

I guess it depends on the game, but I generally really enjoy cinematic scenes provided that they are sufficently short, meaningful, and well done

So, I definitely want to see cinematic scenes in future games, and maybe even more of them

A really good example of the power of cinematic scenes is in the Wii game, Silent Hill: Shattered Memories. I was always so excited for one to come on -- some of that excitement might have to do with the break of terror it gives you,

On the aspect of detail, I prefer the scenes done with mostly or all in-game material. So, I don't like ones that are completely outside the graphics the game has. But, facial expressions is a must, and that extent is usually not incorporated in the game, and I think that's fine

TL;DR I like cinematic cutscenes if they are short, well done, and mostly use in-game material

Depends entirely on the game. Like, end-of-boss-fight cutscenes in JRPGs that I've played? Those are fine. Heck, I even love the finishers in Skyrim (especially the third person ones - the point of the finisher is to be able to see my character being badass... when it stays in 1st person, it just looks strange and awkward).


Yeah, that was one of the things I didn't like in Final Fantasy 13-2. Boss fight "QTE" events that you never actually got to see the cool stuff because you're spending too much time trying to find and then do the button presses.

The difference is that failure was possible when using melee weapons in the first two Deus Ex games. Maybe you aim for the wrong part of the body, maybe the guard moves at the last second and you miss, maybe you're simply not strong enough and a single blow isn't enough to down the enemy. With takedowns, your only limitation is how many charged energy cells are at your disposal---conceptually weird, as Jensen inexplicably can't punch people while his batteries are recharging. I mean, the whole reason the energy system was designed the way it was is because the takedown system is so horribly broken. If you were to allow the player to engage in melee combat at all times with the efficacy of a takedown, the game would be a total joke. And even with the energy limitation, it rarely prevents you from takedowning every enemy you come across---you're simply forced to sit around for a minute, twiddling your thumbs while your juice refills. And considering that stealth is basically just as easy in Human Revolution as it was in the original, it's not as if there is any real challenge in the approach, either.

No, I'm very comfortable with describing Deus Ex HR's takedowns as non-gameplay. It's the closest thing to an actual win button I've seen in a game. And due to that fact they were forced to further limit the player in other arbitrary ways. This was just about the most significant failing of HR, and why I really have no interest in a second play through.

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On finishers in general:

A game should never lock the player into a finisher once it's been initiated. If the player hits a movement key or action button, control should immediately be returned. There are many times in which a game forces you to wait as an animation runs, meanwhile the enemy AI is unaffected and proceeds to kill your character as they stand there staring into space. I also run into situations where I begin a kill move, but before the attack actually takes place I notice another enemy in the area. If I'm trying to avoid detection, it makes sense to withdraw the attack so I can remove each threat without the other being aware. Instead, the attack goes forward and I'm forced to deal with the consequences of something I did not want to do.

In short, finishers are okay---not great---but control should only be arrested from the player in the most extreme of situations.

For me it definitely depends on the game.

In arcadey or cinematic games (like fighting games, hack 'n slash action games, and certain types of RPGs)? Great - can add to the experience.

In any game that should be striving for realistic-style (as opposed to arcade-style or cinematic-style) real-time combat? No thanks - ruins the experience. Especially when such games are primarily intended to first-person and really benefit from player immersion *cough* TES *cough*