I'd point out that when talking about Tamriel, we're talking about a world where the technological and industrial capacities are medieval, yet many other aspects (sheer number of books present, lifespans of the human races, available comforts) are comparable to a post-industrial society.

Think on it. The need for highly skilled surgeons would be less in a society where Restoration magic can heal wounds and purge diseases. The idea of a Fortune 500 pharmaceutical firm is laughable in a society where various plants can be used for everyday household needs.

Why develop refrigeration when magic can provide Frost effects? Why produce matches when everybody knows how to cast Flare?

Who needs light bulbs when you've got Light or Night-Eye effects?

The problem that extreme class-centrism presents is that Tamriel is not our world, so the adaptions that exist in the mechanics do not fully register in the mind.

As for the idea of not being able to perform certain magic if you're a pure fighter: to what extent?

In a world without something as basic as the Band-Aid brand bandage and Neosporin, what idiot wouldn't walk around with the ability to at least heal minor wounds?

In a world without the Zippo lighter, what moron wouldn't know how to cast Flare?

Sure, those people could exist in Tamriel. But to find them, all you need to do is visit the local graveyard, and find the section set aside for "those idiots that didn't realize even some basic proficiency in restoration is a good idea."

If you want to make your game harder for yourself, feel free to avoid any use of a skill if it's "not in your class." I won't force you to use it.

But don't think that it improves immersiveness for me. My characters have traits like common sense, basic reasoning skills, an understanding of logic, a willingness to use that brain they were given, etc. Bruce Lee was a great Martial Artist because Bruce Lee was a genius Martial Artist. And he also felt fine, nay, encouraged, using a gun to defend yourself if you could. Why willingly handicap yourself? In Skyrim, you're going to have Dragons trying to EAT YOU!

As for a requirement that you receive training to use a skill...well, how so?

I was two grade levels ahead in high school math and science because I taught myself algebra and biology straight out of a textbook. If only there were skill books in The Elder Scrolls...oh, wait, there are.

I went through school and paid tuition so I could take classes to prepare me for anything that might come up in life. If only you could find knowledgeable people in Tamriel and pay them for training...oh, wait, you can.

I took martial arts lessons and practiced for hours every week. If only in The Elder Scrolls you could spend time practicing what you have learned to make yourself better at things...oh, wait, you do.

As far as actually gaining proficiency in multiple fields, ever hear of the term polymath or Renaissance Man? Imagine, for a moment, that some people enjoy playing such characters in video games. ElderScrolls lets you do that. Why take it away, when it's really only an option.

^ My point, only more eloquently said.

I'd like it if your skill levels effected what you received during whatever training intro they have. Have a 45 in blades you find a decent sword, have a 45 in destruction magic you find a scroll that trains you in a decent fire spell etc. Like in the beginning of morrowind if when you told the TSA guy you were a X custom class he would give you X and Y gear and Z spell. Crappy enough skill you get nothing not even a rusty spoon for your blades skill of 5. Oblivion you are just escaping so it makes less sense, but if they were releasing you into society as an ex-con or ex-military basic outfitting might make sense. Here is your belongings from before you went to jail type thing. You want to train up your lockpicking skill well then buy some damn lockpicks.

Not at all actually. Explain how something like fast travel actually affected gameplay? It doesn't because it's entirely optional and if you don't want to use it, just forget about it and it won't harm you in any way. The two starting spells you get in OB are entirely ignorable if you so choose but are there for several reasons. So your somewhat childish flamingo example doesn't quite work here because that is a thing in the game that you would see no matter how you try to ignore it but fast-travel and starting spells are entirely optional in their use and thus can be ignored.

please don't degrade my posts with stupid, ridiculous and immature examples like what you gave me.

Well said

Are we so sure magic is of such household availability as you say? It's more widely used that other RPGs, True, but i've encoutered many foes in oblivion that used no magic at all, yet would have had a better chance had they used whatever spell they had while running towards the player. magic just doesn't seem to be available to everyone in TES. With the player's past being obscured as it is, is isn't far fetched to think he might have acquired those minor spells along the way to where he is. I just find learning how to start magic from a specific source, be it asking a trainer, reading a book, or even watching enough people do it with an observant eye, would set magic users apart, and give pride to it's users.

I whole heartedly agree, however, with the rest of your post. With the holes to Aetherius being there, magic is invariably a large part of "Mundus" and would indeed replace modern technological advancements.

This isn't even how it works in real life. I don't know why anybody would want this.

I can still bake cookies even if I'm not a chef. Why shouldn't I be able to cast spells if I'm not a mage? Unless it says something like that in the lore, like only certain people are born with the ability, I don't see why it should be like that.

Personally, I always felt that to be limits on the AI, which was I particularly enjoyed clearing out Necromancer and Conjurer dungeons, as well as Oblivion worlds. There the enemies have a greater tendency to backtrack and use healing spells. I use the Supreme Magicka mod that alleviates some of this, but I'm hoping that Bethesda's new engine comes with a more comprehensive AI package so allies don't get themselves killed outright, and single enemies aren't such a pushover if it's supposed to be a difficult enemy.

I just started playing Morrowind again, and I chose a pure warrior Nord. I didn't have any spells starting out and I went over to the local shop and purchased the cheapest spell they had. I had 30 magicka points and it cost me 5 points to cast it although I only had a 21% chance of casting it. Now that I've come back to Morrowind, I think that's how it should be. So for ESV for example, if you did not choose Destruction for your class, you would have a low chance of casting any destruction spell such as a fire spell. If you had Illusion, then you would have a much higher chance of successfully casting the spell.

So if you don't choose any magic skills for your class, your chance of casting any magic spells is low and at the same time you would have a very small amount of magicka.

I would agree with this ^.^ Morrowind did alot of things right, but it seems like your main gripe were the tuturial spells and the lack of spell fizzle-ing. I had almost forgotten about those bloody pathetic tuturial spells because of supreme magicka and others removing them. I see your point though, it was odd that you started out with magic, but they were weak spells and you had very little magicka at level 1 anyway in both games. I guess you just have to assume your character had a life before prison in oblivion and new two useless spells lol. But I liked the removal of spell fizzle and remain wholeheartedly against class limitations, because they inherently allow lazy technique and depthless games to seem "ok" >.>

Well, a number of Oblivion's quests were pretty clearly designed with the assumption that the player would be using fast travel (Tears of the Savior, and pretty much the entire Fighter's Guild story, for instance). You could do them without fast travel, but you were subjecting yourself to an incredible amount of tedium by doing so. A less extensive fast travel system could have led them to make the travel involved in quests a little more efficient.

How exactly would you train in a school of magic without casting spells? If it is just a matter of having read up on casting magic, then why couldn't the protagonist already know a few rudimentary spells?

This is a TES game, I want to be able to work on all skills. But I do agree, it's way to easy to level everything in TES games.

I think a system where your majors are level like normal (all 7, 12 whatever they have in Skyrim), but minors are kinda linked. Meaning you level up one, the next skill up will be difficult. You continue you this for the duration of your character growth. If you have 100s in everything but alchemy (25), since it's a minor...it's would be eqiv to level your major from 999 to 1000.

I think this way if you want to work on a super character you work for it...feel acomplished...plus there would be no nerfing of skills. Want 100 in everything...work for it.

I think that if it isn't a part of your specialization or major skills you shouldn't be able to train a skill past say 50. If a skill is neither part of specialization or major skills then its shouldn't be trainable above 25.


The reason I believe in strict classes with only a little bending room is because I remember fable and how your character just winds up using every skill...magic. Archery and swords because there's nothing restricting you. If you're a pure warrior, you should be able to use some lousy basic spells if you like, but never become very proficient in them.

See, the thing here is that in Morrowind, combat was extremely unbalanced compared to Oblivion. A pure warrior could not only survive more easily in MW, but the straight up warrior class was actually the most unbalanced in the game. The total lack of mana regeneration meant that all one had to do was dodge the enemy wizard's spells (I once literally did the Time Warp to outlast an enemy spell slinger), then dodge summon, run up, and cut down the mage in question. That, plus the sheer amount of enchanted loot meant that even if you did need magic for some reason, you didn't have to actually learn it. Which meant that the best way to use one's time was to level up one's weapon and armor skills.



I never play without Supreme Magicka. It not only makes the threat posed by enemy spell casters more intense, but it also makes enemy melee and stealth characters more versatile. Like you, I honestly don't think that one should be corralled into choosing "I'll be either a Mage, or a Fighter, or a Thief" when talking about an Elder Scrolls Game, where the idea is "do what you want with your life in the game experience." Thus, the class-centric idea is anathema to Elder Scrolls. If you want class-centrism choices, I hear good things about Dragon Age. Presence or lack of winged, flying, fire-breathing beasts does not an Elder Scrolls game make. Freedom to interact with the game world, with appropriate trade offs (effectiveness penalties for wearing armor, casting efficiency for skill in each school) is what defines a great Elder Scrolls game.

I like this simple approach:

Your major skills will work as they did in Oblivion. Minor skills, however, work somewhat like the training quests did in Oblivion. i.e You must seek out someone willing to take you under their wing and train you in that skill. Once you do their quest, (which, of course, should be themed around that particular skill in some way) you will then "acquire" that particular skill at level one, it appears on your skill menu, and then you are able to train it yourself as normal (albeit much slower than major skills)

Oblivion mistakes :
- Stats are horribly unbalanced and managed. Everyone wants to train END and STR to have more HP and carrying capacity, maybe INT for more Magika if you are a mage and that's it. PER is a garbage stat.
- Training Minor skills power you up but doesn't power up the challenges you face
- Training Major skills that provide no or marginal combat benefits (armory, running, acrobatics etc...) doesn't power you up but powers up the challenges you face
- Zog Zog the 20 Int/Wiz orc barbarian becomes arch mage without ever casting a single spell or training a single magic school.
- Worse, Zog Zog the 20 Int/Wiz orc mage becomes arch mage without ever casting a single spell or training a single magic school and then proceeds to save the world from the Oblivion menace at level 2 just because he became a grand master swordman in his minor sword skill. Nuff said.



If the game wants us to pick a "class" at start, which means to pick some skills to be our major skills, it better not do some dumb stuff behind our back out of that. Oblivion system wasn't class based nor skill based, it was just a mess. The effective consequences of the class you choose were completely broken. The stat effects in game were badly done and the way to optimize our evolution was convoluted and tedious.


Hint hint hint, we want retroactive benefits from END. At least, it'd make spells that drain it have a meaningful effect

"You only get starting spells in schools you've chosen" = OK.
"You need training to even use a spell" = NOT OK
"Minor skills must svck" = OH HELL NO.

Freedom is a major selling point of TES. They don't even advertise it. Bethesda Game Studios just means "you can change your entire character direction mid-game because you want to."

In effect, buying a spell is training the skill. If the spell shop doesn't teach you HOW to cast the spell, what exactly are they selling?

^ This ^. Though, if you buy a spell that you then can't cast, I believe that's the Tamriel equivalent of Retail. Ever buy an appliance or tool and then just let it sit unused?

This. On my first Oblivion character I went from mage to warrior to ranger-type back to warrior. Depending on my mood for the span of time I played that character I changed him around. It's what I want to be able to do, continuity be damned.

oblivions sytem was a mess just because of the level scaling which was stupid, it was easier to pick all magic major skills and then run through the game as a warrior so you were at level 1 destroying anything that got in your way. If they didn't have level scaling when we entered Oblivion we would be confronted with level 30 Dremora that couldn't care less how high our blade skill was because we just wouldn't have the STR or HP to deal with them.

You can't really play a character with only a few defined skills in a solo adventure rpg like an Elder Scrolls game. Sure, if you're running around a dungeon with four buddies, each person can be very well trained in a small set of skills. But if you are out in the big world all by your lonesome, its terribly frustrating when you find a treasure chest at the end of the dungeon and realize you can't open it.

In short, a one-man-band must be a jack-of-all-trades.

It is a true sandbox game, where if you want to lay a fat turd and roll around in it you are free to do so. Oblivion was a joke in almost every respect though. I never actually finished it or any of its add-on packs because there was no sense of purpose to anything. If the main storyline was any good it might have been salvaged. There were plenty of interesting side quests, but I really question the role-playing value of doing everything just because you can and it just seems like a gimmick that people who either can not decide what direction they want to go with a character, have ADD, or just like to play around with spells and stuff and not role-play in that nifty little playground. This is perfectly acceptable and I just will not make the mistake of buying TESV. Whenever someone tells me, " you can do ANYTHING you want in a game!" it means that really there is no objective challenge to test my gaming abilities or probe the human experience and is instead just time wasting material. I guess I should see if I can find the games before Oblivion for free and try them out to see if Oblivion was the "black sheep" like everyone says.

By "no objective to anything" I mean there is no real story and its just a series of disconnected events. If there is some form of continuity the world can feel like an epic novel or without that it feels like someone scammed me into buying a "vacation" and instead all I get left with is a bunch of travel brochures on my desk.

I like the Idea of choosing my major skills, and the specialization that increased rate of learning fit in with giving a character some + and - to hybrid builds. Alas, the entire system is too simple and I felt like I was standing in the shallow end of the pool when it comes to actual skill depth. I know, I am person who likes being a supreme master of an intricate trade and not the level cap of a bunch of half-finished skill trees. If I shut my imagination off and just go with it the game is enjoyable, but if I want something that stimulates me into thinking about life in general I have to go elsewhere (which FPS are usually the only games that do that to me). If I am playing a role I want to feel like I am exploring some unique personality type, and the TES series just does not do that with Oblivion. Yes, yes everyone can now mock me for being a TES4 nublet, but I am willing to wait and see how far BGS goes with Skyrim. They may pleasantly surprise me!

I would love to have some kind of bonus for selecting a pre-made class. They often have disadvantages, and people reate a custom class to get it perfect. It would be nice to have strange buffs when you select a class (For exampe, a Thief may sneak eaasier, whereas a Mage may have an increased magicka regeneration). It would add a lot of diversity to the game, and may even convince people to choose a pre-made class.

That goes against the theme of being able to do anything you want because then you have some actual role-playing of that character.