Just wondering if there would be any interest in a new CS tutorial and what people would like to see in one. I'm thinking of something a little more in-depth than the tutorials on the wiki, maybe even something 'book length'. I'm just putting feelers out right now, but I'd love to hear your ideas and suggestions.

It would be a noble thing of you to do, and the more indepth tutorials the better. So it is a good idea, as long as you want to be doing it - it probably will take you a long time.

I vote yes to have a tutorial of each category.

I've seen some programs mostly programming developer that have a tutorial included of each environment of how to do.
I really missed that in CS when I'm offline.

I dunno if its really needed.

TES Alliance has been creating tutorials in the form of classes for each aspect of modding:
http://www.invision.tesalliance.org/forums/index.php?/forum/82-esiv-oblivion-classes/


I cant say no to having more tutorials, but you may want to write ones for areas that are less documented, like animations or the region/heightmap editors.

The "Other" category is probably the one that needs the most attention, and that's not because there is one big missing category, but the little things like Factions, Idles, Races, Random doors, Furniture that don't get used often don't get any love at all. There are more of them than I'm listing here, these are just the ones where I went looking and found little or nothing.

Factions; everyone can figure out how to create one, but there's little guidance on when to add an NPC to an existing faction and when to create a new one. The fact that no other mods know about your new one can be critical.

Idles, much confusion about the AnimObject and the Misc Item referenced in the "Use Item At" package. Needs something on how to attach the AnimObject to the animation, if you're building a new one.

Races needs a tutorial on how to hook up to Chargen, how to get voices and dispositions and greetings to work.

Doors can teleport to a random selection of targets (e.g Oblivion Gates, Tower Portals, Oblivion Caves) to simulate random dungeons. Needs a how-to.

Furniture - new types, furniture markers, get-up/sit-down animations, bone priorities for idles animations while "using new furniture"

----------------------

I did not vote for the Modelling, texturing or animation categories, not because they don't need tutorials, but because they aren't CS ones. The tutorials need to be for Blender/gmax, Photoshop/GIMP, NifSkope etc. There's need of a troubleshooting guide for the standard errors in adding these things to the CS, but most of the mistakes are made outside, such as missing normal maps, bone weights etc.

yes, I entirely agree, it is a bugger trying to figure those things out!

And creating a new Race has to be FAQ.

Thanks to everyone who has provided responses. I'd love to hear more thoughts on the subject, pro or con. Feel free to express yourself.


It will. But I enjoy writing tutorials almost as much as I enjoy modding, so I don't see that as an obstacle.


I'd like to provide an offline version of the tutorial as well. I know a lot of people don't have limitless access to the Internet.


There are some excellent tutorials there. I've used the modeling ones by Vince Bly. They're great. I believe that multiple approaches (tutorials, detailed wiki notes, and classes) form the best approach and can coexist peacefully.


The aim of the tutorial would be to explain each topic in greater depth than the short wiki tutorials do. Many of the 'other' topics are closely related to topics which have been covered and could be included in a longer tutorial. For example, a complete tutorial on building interior cells would have sections devoted to doors, furniture, lighting, trigger zones, traps, path nodes, etc. The 'Creating your first dungeon' tutorial does this, but doesn't go into a lot of depth in any one subject. Creating NPCs is another good example of a topic which covers a wide range of modding skills which are poorly integrated on the wiki.

Not that I'm saying that the short, concise tutorials on the wiki aren't great if you just need to get something done, but longer, more involved tutorials give you more room to explain how everything interconnects and works together. The two formats are complementary, not exclusive.


You're correct, they're not CS tutorials, but I included them to see if they would elicit any kind of a response. It may be that there isn't much interest in a CS tutorial, but that there is interest in other, related subjects. The title of the thread probably should have reflected that, but it was an afterthought.

I have considered adding basic texturing, modeling, and animation tutorials as well. Just enough to get you started and to show you how to set stuff up in the CS and get it working in-game. Many people who are new to modding won't necessarily understand the distinctions between the different applications and just want to 'get their stuff working'. These tutorials could be included as part of a complete 'Intro to Modding' course. When I said 'book length', I wasn't really kidding.

Personally, I'd prefer to see small (but detailed) tutorials on these and other obscure topics rather than a really long tutorial on anything and everything related to interior modding (or a similarly broad field). I think the wiki does a fine job of teaching the basics, I'm really not sure how it can be made better. On the other hand, detailed information on more obscure fields is sometimes lacking, and it would benefit someone who already knows the basics but just wants to check how to do a specific thing (eg. set up a trap or a piece of furniture). I, personally, hate having to browse through 'book length' tutorials to find that one piece of information I'm looking for.

If you're catering to complete newbies, you have to consider attention span. How many people would really sit down and follow a 30 page tutorial step by step? As you say, people want to 'get their stuff working,' not learn everything there is to learn at one time (especially since its often easier to absorb information as you go rather than trying to memorize everything at once).

Mention of the "step by step" style of tutorial reminds me that one of the main things lacking in many of the existing ones is the "why".

They're often just lists of things to do, without any explanation of why the order of those steps is (or is not) important, whether there are alternatives to any of the steps, etc. I've come across a few that included pointless (and harmless) steps that achieved nothing useful, in some cases because those were once required, but now aren't (a lot of instances of this with NifSkope), and in others they were pure superstitious ritual that never did anything.

Putting in the "why" tends to make the author reconsider the steps and take out the fluff. It also improves the usefulness of the document, because when tools change, the reader can see how to change the process.

If you want to get really, really involved in this project, why not structure it as a step-by-step guide, aimed at the people who are creating their very first mod, or who have little experience with modding Oblivion, to creating a full mod from the ground up? This would involve all of the aspects of the CS you mentioned (not all your categories up there pertain to the CS). You could start with landscaping an external cell to make room for a building. Add the building. Create an interior for it, preferably with a basemant, as well. Add an NPC, and perhaps a companion animal for the NPC (to get into the AI), and have that NPC give a quest to find and return an item located somewhere else in Tamriel. Something like this could touch upon virtually every feature of the CS, including some simple scripting. The important thing in such an approach, I think, is to not assume familiarity with various things which you might take for granted. Maybe you know where to find that bale of hay in the CS, but it's not easy if you've never seen it in the list, before. Indeed, finding the right objects to place can be one of the most time-consuming and frustrating things about the CS.

I do agree with previous comments regarding the tutorials at TESA, but there's room in the world for multiple approaches to tutorials. Different people learn in different ways, and some people might just enjoy doing various tutorials that touch upon the same subjects but handle them in divergent manners. There isn't one "best" way to do these things.

I think modeling, texturing, and animation could be included in such a tutorial as sort of "extra credit". Ever notice how sometimes a horse will lower its head to the ground as though its eating, as part of its idle routine? I've never seen a rat do that. So what if you have a pet rat and you'd like to add an "eat" category to its AI so it would go to its food dish and eat just like an NPC will do? Rats don't have eat animations. Think of all the poor, starving rats in Tamriel. Modeling and texturing could come in as, for example, the creation of a unique quest object, rather than something generic that's just dropped into the world for the PC to find. These need to be extra, though, and not part of the mandatory part of a tutorial because not everyone has the skills (or even wants to develop them) to work with the tools necessary to create textures, models, and animations.

Different people at different levels require different approaches. Someone who is just opening the CS for the first time, who has never done anything more complex than hitting the 'Start' button on a game menu, is in a different position than an experienced modder, who is more likely to find terse, bullet-point style tutorials more efficient. Both types of tutorials are required. They are not mutually exclusive.

The wiki is an excellent means of sharing terse tutorials because of the format, but it is much harder to use as a textbook because it takes an inherently meandering approach instead of a linear one. Obviously you can learn how to use the CS from the wiki. I've done it myself. The tutorials are quite satisfactory in their own way. But that doesn't mean they can't be improved upon. Just as Oblivion, while excellent in itself, can be improved upon. You can think of the objective of creating a new tutorial as a sort of overhaul of the existing documentation.

As far as attention span goes I would argue that there are people who would work their way through such a tutorial. Maybe not all at once, but over a period of time. I've read over a dozen technical books about programming, web design, etc., in precisely this fashion. I have always found the books to be a more reliable way to learn than the online tutorials, which I also used, but always found lacking. In any case, people with a short attention span aren't likely to last long as modders once they realize the amount of work involved in creating a good mod. I prefer to aim at a best case scenario.


This is probably the primary need addressed by a new tutorial. That's the 'fluff' that gets cut out of bullet-point tutorials, the stuff that's assumed by the author. That isn't a bad thing: the tutorial has to be addressed to some sort of audience. But it can be a hurdle for new people.


I had planned on using successively more complex mods. First a simple 'hello, world' mod, then a more complex mod, etc. Process is as important to understand as any other element. As to modeling, texturing, and animation, these would be included as separate sections, with their own mods. A complete tutorial on creating an asset would include how to set it up in the CS and make a mod out of it.

Thanks again to everyone who provided feedback. I look forward to your additional insights.

First and last bump.

I'm still interested in hearing feedback about the idea. I've started working on a tutorial, but if there really isn't any interest in it, I'll just do it for 'fun' and keep a low priority on it.

From the comments, I'm gathering that most people are satisfied with the existing starter tutorials on the wiki and would just like to see some more advanced tutorials on specialized topics. Unfortunately, I'm no better qualified to write these advanced tutorials than anyone else here (except in one or two very restricted areas...maybe :shrug: ).

I vaguely remember the first dungeon tutorial - there was no explanation as to why the objects in the render window disappeared on zoom out and no mention of the preview window - huge omissions. And this bright idea of not listing the pieces needed for the first room :nono: I lost a year of modding because of this. When someone first comes in contact with the CS is overwhelmed 99% of the time - so writing a really good tutorial would require one seeing things from this angle, mention for instance that things dropped in the render window have random z coordinates, which shouldn't be and one would not expect it. A good tutorial should state that there is no Control Tab functionality in the CS for instance, or that when one closes a Reference window focus is not given back to the render window - I had to http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/963224-render-window-loosing-focus/ these as questions - and finally amend them myself. On the other hand a good tutorial should be very dense - no jokes, no patronizing but lots of info in as little lines as possible. This being said - well we all got used to dungeon building. What I really miss is a - not so much tutorial but - reference for nifs. I really do not understand them and the "Working with nifs" sections in the CS - I never got the grip of them. There is either sourceforge (PyFFI and NifSkope) - too technical - or random tutorials but nothing like an anatomy of a nif for intermediate modders. As tutorials usually address a particular theme take for instance :http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1080728-add-a-static-model-to-a-creature/ - if you tried to write a tutorial on this you would see what I mean - there is a hole in the literature lol. Same goes for kfs of course - there is a very good tutorial for adding animations inside a nif file - but how about creating a dummy anim - that is a valid kf file that does nothing ? Nothing nowhere
So for me this is the area to concentrate - a (not very noobish) introduction to nifs and some tutorials to manipulate nifs in random ways.
Hope this made some sense - btw are you still on remaking the OBSE docs ? Hope yes

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

I agree that there are huge gaps in the documentation, a lot of the information on the wiki is out of date, and a lot of it is poorly organized. That's not the fault of the contributors: there's too much information, too little time, and not enough people contributing. Organizing information sensibly, and writing bullet-proof tutorials are both fairly challenging and time-consuming. It's little wonder the documentation is in the state it's in. I'd like to correct this to a small degree, by helping people build a good foundation, but I don't think the advanced tutorials are anywhere on the horizon just yet.

As far as tutorial writing goes, the style has to appeal to the audience. Terse, concise tutorials are good for getting things done if you already have a good grasp of the platform, but don't leave a lot of room for explanations. A chef doesn't need to know why mixing two ingredients is a good thing or a bad thing: he already knows. All he needs is a recipe.

The wiki is a good format for these kinds of tutorials, and already contains a number of these (though they could be multiplied indefinitely, to be sure). But the 'why' is as important as the 'how' to a noob. I think a good beginner tutorial needs to take a more relaxed approach, move slowly, explain as much as is required, and teach through repetition. That's not going to appeal to any of the seasoned modders here, but I'm not writing for the seasoned modders. I'm writing a CS tutorial, which is entirely grade school.

It might seem strange to focus on the one area that seems to have adequate coverage, but I think improving the coverage could go a fair ways in reducing the amount of time new modders spend trying to figure out simple steps, and the amount of time more experienced modders spend explaining simple things to new modders. The way I see it, both groups win, and both groups have more time to spend exploring more interesting avenues of modding.

A good beginner tutorial should invest a fair bit of time explaining how mods work, what the difference is between a base object and a reference, how the engine handles mod conflicts, the difference between a clean and a dirty mod, when to use persistent references, etc. These are all basic modding fundamentals that a lot of modders don't understand until well into their career. The more advanced tutorials on using NifSkope, animation, scripting, etc. will make a lot more sense in this context because, by the time the modder is ready to tackle these subjects, they will already know how to create a clean, elegant mod, test performance, gather debugging info, and use the CS efficiently and effectively.

Anyway, that's how I see it. You'll have to wait and see if anything comes of it. :rolleyes:

Aside: Reformatting the OBSE documentation was pretty high on my list of priorities, as the original document is pretty dense and hard to use for hours at a time. The function list is still a WIP, but I'm taking a bit of a break from it; making hundreds of entries was driving me a little batty.

My vote goes to Quest tutorials. Personally I feel there could be more than what's out there. I loved TES Alliance's approach, but there haven't been any new tutorials lately.

~DE

Yes!! After trying to follow the beginner's tutorial and giving up... I've looked at several of the tutorials on the wiki and a number of them are just plain wrong, or buggy... I tried fixing one of the beginner's tutorials and gave up because I couldn't even figure out what the author was trying to accomplish. I do appreciate what people are trying to achieve and doing a tutorial isn't easy, but some of the material that's there now really isn't helpful. There are some good ones - don't get me wrong.

Anyway, if you've got some ideas for some new ones, I'd definitely take a look. I'm interested in quests, scripting, modeling, texturing and animation. I have been thinking of doing a tutorial on the inertia matrix, but I haven't worked out all the parameters, so most of my information is empirical data at this point. If you would like some input on that, I'd love to be able to hash it out with someone. I'm a mechanical engineer, so I know how it's supposed to work, but how it's been modeled in a video game is another issue entirely!! Although I will say, they didn't do a bad job

You should consider, if you are inclined to write a tutorial, contributing to the wiki yourself then. You could update what is out of date, help organize what is unorganized, add new material where you see gaps you can fill. The problem with writing a manual like you describe is that it's very hard to get something main streamed enough that it sees a lot of use and exposure. For example, Lord Gannondorf's Mod Maker's manual for Oblivion is an excellent guide (100+ pages and one I am currently updating with his blessing), it's been around for years, there was even a MW version it was adapted from, but not very well known in the mainstream so doesn't make the impact it could for new modders. The wiki, however, is everyone's one stop shop for learning how to mod, so if you really want to contribute something to the education of future modders, I would urge you to become a contributer to the CS Wiki where your hardwork and insight will be more widely used and appreciated. The wiki can only survive and grow if we do our part to maintain and improve it.

Just food for thought, good luck with whatever you decide to do, you're a fine modder, I'm sure it will be well done and the more the merrier I say. :foodndrink:

New tutorials are in the works as we are currently overhauling our classes, Worldbuilding will be released soon as a two section course, texturing will be releasing soon as well, and we have a lead on a new questbuilding scholar to overhaul the questbuilding class. Don't mark us down for the count yet. :lmao:

Seconded - start with the nifs sections


Great !

I would like to grab this opportunity (also) to insist on the gap in the NIFs documentation - I tend to suspect the reason behind it is the closed source.
I have managed to learn scripting, dungeon building, AI and whatnot - despite the sometimes unefficiency of the tutorials - I am still basically editing NIFs in the blind - trial and error - crash and reload - after 4 years (with gaps)
I would savor a reference tutorial on nifs - one that gives an anatomy of a nif file (as seen in NifSkope) - explaining what can be modified and what not - the relations between the nodes - in a systematic manner
I really do believe this is the big hole in the documentation
Same goes of course for KFs
NB : I am not talking about a modeling (animation) tutorial but about a NIF (KF) one - this is not a slip of the tongue (keyboard)

Merci :tops:

I trust you've given the same excellent advice to the instructors at TESAlliance, all of whom are excellently qualified to do so.

As I've mentioned before: wiki articles are not the ideal way to write the kind of tutorial I had in mind. I have made numerous contributions to many wikis over the years, including the CS and Geck wikis, and I am quite familiar with the strengths and limitations of the medium. What I was proposing was something a little more along the lines of a book, with lengthy explanations, plenty of pictures, asides, and a single, unified authorial design leading from point A to point B with every step documented and explained.

I'm sure you've read books like this yourself and will agree they are a somewhat different medium than a wiki which is more like an encyclopedia (as it should be). Likewise, I'm sure you see how an instructor-led course with a Q&A forum is a different medium from a wiki, and how a quality textbook can support that medium. I'm not trying to step on anyone's toes or call into question the quality of work they may be performing (as I've repeated several times), I simply thought the advantages of providing an alternative format would be obvious to others. Obviously I was mistaken. :shrug:

I have read Gannondorf's manual and actually had something a little like this in mind, only elaborated on in much greater depth. I wasn't aware that it was still being maintained, though I'm glad to hear that it is. I'm sure you will do it justice.

As far as exposure goes, my little site, which has no advertising anywhere (that I'm aware of) somehow manages to get over a thousand hits a month just from random google searches, so I hadn't really considered that a problem. I just assumed that anyone who really wanted to find such a guide would; and since that was my audience, I gave it little thought.

In any case, it's of little matter to me. Tutorials are just something I enjoy doing, like modding or writing, so I thought I would propose the idea so that others could provide their feedback, which they have done, and which I appreciate. It doesn't seem like the idea of a new beginner's tutorial appeals to many people, so if everyone is content with the existing tutorials and the TESAlliance classes I am content to leave it be. For the time being, I will have to content myself with putting out fires.

In any case, I appreciate the feedback which you have all graciously provided.



That kind of tutorial could only be written by one of the developers, I suspect. Though if you've put a lot of hours into it over the years you might be inclined to document your discoveries for others.

I certainly have, we are big supporters of the CS Wiki on TESA, and several wiki articles began as tutorials in our school.



If that's the route you wish to go I'm sure it will be excellent. I hope you'll consider uploading it to TESA or adding it to our new tutorials library. :nod:



I apologize if this is the message you took from my reply, I thought ending with "more the merrier" made my position clear that whatever sort of article/book/tutorial you decided to write would be a welcome addition to anyone's learning. The Wiki and TESA certainly don't hold the monopoly on sharing knowledge, I hope you will see me as a supporter of your endeavor not an opponent to it. :foodndrink:



This was my primary reason for suggesting the wiki, exposure. Seems like nothing to you but even with two years of actively promoting the classes on TESA and tens of thousands of hits a month, we have only recently begun to become part of the main stream where when a novice asks for help folks will say "Hey try TESA's classes". I was just trying to caution you that from my experience you may end up investing a great deal of your time in creating it and not reaping the satisfaction of knowing you're reaching others. As you said, you hadn't considered that, so now you have and if you aren't bothered by that, then you should carry on with your plan. My advice was free, take it for what it's worth. :read:



When you present an idea this way, people are always inclined to play devil's advocate in hopes of helping you make your decision constructively. We would be doing you a disservice if we just clapped and blew smoke up your bum to make you feel good. eh? I haven't read anything in this thread that would suggest that your idea does not appeal to people. I think we can all collectively agree that everyone learns differently and one man's perfect tutorial is another man's headache, so it's wise to have many tutorials in many styles available. Like I said, yours would be most welcome on TESA, so I hope you will digest the comments folks have made and carry on with your plan, rather than be discouraged. Cheers! ^_^

Not at all. I simply meant that the idea of a beginner tutorial per se didn't seem to draw a lot of interest. Clearly there is an interest in more advanced tutorials!

I may continue with my tutorial in any case, but I don't want to be a nuisance about it. I do get tired of the 'wiki/tutorial' debate, however; but that has more to do with other conversations I've had on other forums about the same subject than this particular thread, so I apologize if I let past experiences color my current perceptions. A pet peeve of mine, I guess. :banghead:

Keep up the good work at TESA. I'm glad to hear you guys are still chuggin' along. I'm sure there are more excellent tutorials looming on the horizon.

I think a beginner tutorial is very important and would be glad to see someone write one. I know when I started I really considered giving up and I've seen a lot of new members on the forums lately, so I think a beginner tutorial would be very beneficial. I'm an experienced programmer, so I ignored a lot of the bad advice and habits I saw in the beginner tutorials, so if you could put something together that avoided those pitfalls, it would benefit us all when these new modders start releasing stuff. Now we just need to get the newbies to actually look at it!!

Thanks for the support, andalaybay. I hope I don't disappoint you.

I've created a http://www.truancyfactory.com/tutorials/oblivion01.html with a fragment of the text for anyone who's interested. I'm still working out the details, like the formatting and the arrangement of the text, but it gives you an idea of the kind of tutorial I had in mind.

I appreciate any feedback you might have about the style, organization, amount of information (too much, too little), inaccuracies, etc. I'm finding out as I write this just how many little details have managed to escape me even after two years of modding, so don't be surprised if I seem to be struggling to explain a couple of points. I had to look into some of this stuff that I thought I already knew! This is definitely going to be harder more engaging than I had anticipated.

While I think I'm beyond a beginner tutorial now (hahaha), I will still have a look and probably be shocked as to how little I really know I always find it valuable to at least have a quick look at such guides because there always seem to be a couple of tips you can pick up.

I just had a look at the style demo and I love the layout! That is really nicely done and easy to read. One suggestion: you might want to have external links open in a new tab or window, then people can flip back and forth...