"Dawnguard....or Van Helsing?....WTF this is Skyrim!&#34

Post » Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:35 pm

It's a shame this topic got locked, as I was really interested in it. I've never paid too much attention to vampire lore, and the thread upon which this is based showed me that there were a great many references to well-known vampire stories/movies/etc.

Unlike the previous OP, however, I am not going to accuse Beth of "copying." They took elements from various cannons and mashed them together to create their own vampire/vampire hunter experience, and over all I am extremely satisfied with what they have done. Furthermore, in regards to the originality of DG, I was ASTOUNDED. DG expanded on several big elements of TES lore, such as the Snow elves/Falmer, the Soul Cairn, the Daughters of Coldharbour, and Auriel's bow to name a few.

In all honesty I cannot understand how anyone can claim that DG is unoriginal due to some pop culture references when it added so much background to pre-existing Elder Scrolls lore.
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Patrick Gordon
 
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Post » Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:31 am

Agreed.

Even though i haven't played the DLC yet, i'm actually happy that they took "inspiration" from Van Helsing/Blade and other movies/books/etc. For obvious reasons, heh.
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meghan lock
 
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Post » Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:49 pm

Most games are ideas borrowed from other popular media whether it be sci-fi, fantasy, western...whatever. I dont get why its such a big deal. I've played the dlc multiple times and I enjoy it for what it is.
There really is nothing new under the sun...same stories different faces, situations, etc. Its all good as far as Im concerned.
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Jack Walker
 
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Post » Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:55 am

It is unoriginal because Vampire Lords look like they were taken straight from a Dracula movie or Van Helsing. And the devs already had original content to work with. The Vampires in TES were original and unique from other forms of media and we already had a moderate amount of information on the Vampires in Skyrim. The Vampires in Dawnguard are NOTHING like they should be, not only by what we have read about the Volkihar but Vampire lore overall. They traded original content and their own lore for Dracula form and bats which is very cliche. That is why so many people are upset.
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Melly Angelic
 
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Post » Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:41 am

... just tell me they don't sparkle. PLEASE tell me they don't sparkle.

Seriously, though... 95% of modern vampire anything is Bram Stoker with things added and / or removed, so why is this unusual? If they weren't, they couldn't really be called vampires.
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Chloe :)
 
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Post » Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:16 am

To be honest I don't think the vampire lord form looks that much like the vampire form from van helsing. Personally i think it looks LOT more more like underworld.
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Charlotte X
 
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Post » Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:03 am

To be honest I don't think the vampire lord form looks that much like the vampire form from van helsing. Personally i think it looks LOT more more like underworld.

That's exactly what I saw. They look exactly alike: http://image.toutlecine.com/photos/u/n/d/underworld-evolution-2006-60-g.jpg
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James Wilson
 
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Post » Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:31 pm

That's exactly what I saw. They look exactly alike: http://image.toutlecine.com/photos/u/n/d/underworld-evolution-2006-60-g.jpg
yup. I already made a thread earlier about how there are a million other similarities ranging from Serena vs Selena and Father issues.to Werewolves that look similar.
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Chloe Botham
 
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Post » Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:36 am

yup. I already made a thread earlier about how there are a million other similarities ranging from Serena vs Selena and Father issues.to Werewolves that look similar.

I have an issue with the Werewolf design as well. It is in no way the biggest or most significant problem with weres and everything in the game gets a visual update as the series progresses and the tech evolves but there is a difference between an "update" and an "alteration". The Weres are in essesnce true to the series (minus issues) but the new look is dynamically different than in the past. In the past they looked natural, but now they look monstrous and in that fashion some would say cliche and just like the Vampire Lords reflecting pop media instead of established TES, where even their look was more or less unique. Perhaps not rant worthy but still, I think a valid observation and to be fair, my favorite feature from Werewolves in Bloodmoon were their tapetum lucidum (shiny reflective eyes) and that has returned and I am grateful that that little detail remains true.
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Cat Haines
 
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Post » Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:53 pm

My issue is that all of the VL's powers are from different vamp stories in mythology while in TES each clan has different powers which is what makes each unique. Gargoyles in daggerfall were not the servants of Vamps (i dont think so anyways) so in DG they just seem like a stereotype. Also Death Hounds? That just came from nowhere and has no explanation. Undead dogs that loyally serve the Barbaric Ice Vamps? I expected Volk to have pet Ice Wraiths or something. Now all this new stuff is cool BUT i just dont think it fits the lore
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dell
 
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Post » Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:52 am

Eh, there's nothing 100% original in stories any more really. TES lore is just a different combination of ideas that have already been expressed before, now told with a different spin. Also, the werewolves seem pretty much (aside from graphics) the same as before, same basic shape of wolf, and the monstrousness seems to be a Skyrim thing - everything in Skyrim is bigger and nastier because it's in Skyrim. I think they just went for grit in this game, be interesting if they undo that when they go to say, Summerset Isle, in favour of making everything impressive in a more mystical way.

The vampires, well, the monster idea isn't that common, hence people accuse it of ripping off something else. But, also, 90% of vampire lore has been copied. Every vampire that literally burns in sun is a copy of Nosferatu, every vampire that has protruding teeth is ripping off both Stoker and the old novel Varney the Vampire. Most of these attributes were not originally there so it's natural to take attributes from other places as they become more ingrained into the common idea.
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Emily abigail Villarreal
 
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Post » Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:24 am

I have an issue with the Werewolf design as well. It is in no way the biggest or most significant problem with weres and everything in the game gets a visual update as the series progresses and the tech evolves but there is a difference between an "update" and an "alteration". The Weres are in essesnce true to the series (minus issues) but the new look is dynamically different than in the past. In the past they looked natural, but now they look monstrous and in that fashion some would say cliche.
http://www.svatopluk.com/xroads/werewolf.jpg

Much better than those skinny guys we encountered in Bloodmoon.
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Sophie Morrell
 
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Post » Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:00 pm

My two septims worth is that I love Dawnguard. Maybe the VL is overpowered and borrows from mythology - they're still awesome. I love DG and feel its added a whole new depth to Skyrim gameplay. Yes there are references to Underworld (for which I am happy), but the vampires don't sparkle so I'm pretty happy. The upgrades to werewolves are awesome and I spent the better part of an hour cutting (mauling) a bloody swathe from Whiterun to Markarth. While there may be some minor issues I've -very- happy with DG and can't wait to see what else Bethesda has up their sleeves.
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Spencey!
 
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Post » Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:18 am

I have a ps3 but from what I have heard its a eally good dlc, the new armour weapons everything!
The vampire lords may look like the vampires from van helsing, but did those ones shoot orbs out of their hands and dissapear into clouds of bats.... No sir
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flora
 
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Post » Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:49 pm

Hey atleast Bethesda portrayed the Werewolves as monsters, because it says in the art book there were originally going to give them a more Human feel.
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Tinkerbells
 
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Post » Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:14 am

yup. I already made a thread earlier about how there are a million other similarities ranging from Serena vs Selena and Father issues.to Werewolves that look similar.
I actually kind of like that Bethesda borrowed from Underworld, its a great vamp movie.
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Bloomer
 
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Post » Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:42 pm

Just speaking personally, I don't like the Werewolf design from Bloodmoon, (not seen an ingame one in Daggerfall) it looks I'm not sure, I wouldn't say "bad" because of the technology of the day but Skyrim's Werewolves look MUCH better not just in graphics but I mean in design, they look far more monstrous, and a Werewolf is a monster. So I really like the new design, and from what I've seen, I don't care all that much about the Vampire Lord, people loved it in GameJam so it's here to stay atleast in Skyrim and to like is it breaking Lore or is it just adding some more? Since if I'm right Vampires transforming has never been mentioned or seen before so it's an addition.

Anyway. If this REALLY was like Van Helsing I'd want the Dwarven Crossbow to be GAS powered, because then with them being all High tech it'd make some sence maybe not full auto but Semi automatic atleast. But regardless I don't care, I haven't got it yet I'm keeping away from spoilers and when Dawnguard comes out, I'll get it.
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Quick draw II
 
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Post » Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:25 am

I never understood the complaints about the Vampires, it would be lore friendly to have the Volkihar as they are described but from a technological point of view. I don't think that it can be done, Originaly wasn't it that they looked nothing like people and lived soley in the frozen lakes? It's like the request to be able to become a lich, it would end the game
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Suzy Santana
 
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Post » Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:43 am

I never understood the complaints about the Vampires, it would be lore friendly to have the Volkihar as they are described but from a technological point of view. I don't think that it can be done, Originaly wasn't it that they looked nothing like people and lived soley in the frozen lakes? It's like the request to be able to become a lich, it would end the game
The lore depicts them as monsters who cannot and will not blend with society....so Beth urinated on them for Skyrim
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BlackaneseB
 
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Post » Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:17 am

My issue is that all of the VL's powers are from different vamp stories in mythology while in TES each clan has different powers which is what makes each unique. Gargoyles in daggerfall were not the servants of Vamps (i dont think so anyways) so in DG they just seem like a stereotype. Also Death Hounds? That just came from nowhere and has no explanation. Undead dogs that loyally serve the Barbaric Ice Vamps? I expected Volk to have pet Ice Wraiths or something. Now all this new stuff is cool BUT i just dont think it fits the lore
I was kind of confused about the gargoyles. I have yet to read anything lore-related in Dawnguard that suggested vampires could control them. Did beth add this to their lore or something? I don't have a problem with the vampire lords in fact I think they're cool. But I just wish they were I don't more original. I'm pretty sure from all the vampire lore that beth has they could've done some different powers (the bats ability? come on!).
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Leah
 
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Post » Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:10 am

The lore depicts them as monsters who cannot and will not blend with society....so Beth urinated on them for Skyrim
The immortal blood never calls the volkihar monsters it just describes them as being paranoid and cruel and would rather keep to themselves and I would say harkon's court pretty much fit the description.
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Jerry Cox
 
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Post » Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:14 am

The immortal blood never calls the volkihar monsters it just describes them as being paranoid and cruel and would rather keep to themselves and I would say harkon's court pretty much fit the description.
BUT if they COULD blend then why would the Cyrodiil Vampyrum even exist? They arent unique if the Savage Nord Vamps can blend
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Riky Carrasco
 
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Post » Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:28 am

BUT if they COULD blend then why would the Cyrodiil Vampyrum even exist? They arent unique if the Savage Nord Vamps can blend

Even if they could they won't because generally the volkihar don't care for mortal affairs/society they would rather keep to themselves its simply their clan personality like the cyrodil vampires acquiring positions of power in human society using their blend clan ability(they look like a human when well fed). Until something directly effects the volkihar like the dawnguard they simply leave their castle and deal with the problem at hand. Volkihar vampires simply see mortal's as prey/cattle nothing else.

I mean harkon's court pretty much only care about the power plays within the court power structure so they can get the head of the castle position heck some of them like fura and garan no longer care for the politics. Some volkihar have fura philosophy "Eat, sleep and kill"(I like her minus the voice) and some only care for the power plays within their clan structure.

If a volkihar vampire wants to infiltrate mortal affairs they are going to have to be good at magic since in one of the side quests you can ask gunmar how did a vampire get into a jarl court as a visting advisor and he said "They normally use magic to cloud peoples minds". Volkihar can integrate in mortal society if they try hard(with extreme difficulty they have to do it in a place where a town trust them already.) but people will start getting suspicious that your a vampire like sybille I think the jarl court knows but they turn a blind eye to her since they trust her and she helped raise a high king.

The Cyrodiil Vampyrum is the only clan that don't need to use spells and such to blend hence why they are known to be the only clan that can blend into society perfectly they look just like a human when fed. They don't need to make excuses on why their eyes glow or have to wear a helmet because they look like a monster(eg morrowind clans) and they don't need to focus on magic to keep people from being suspicious about their true nature. Thats why people say that the order are the only ones who can blend. Lets not forget vile sphere might have effected them somewhat is another reason why they may want as much power as possible in human society.


When you think of volkihar just simply think of them as the gangrel from the world of darkness and cyrodil vampires ventrue.
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Avril Churchill
 
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Post » Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:30 am

Even if they could they won't because generally the volkihar don't care for mortal affairs/society they would rather keep to themselves its simply their clan personality like the cyrodil vampires acquiring positions of power in human society using their blend clan ability(they look like a human when well fed). Until something directly effects the volkihar like the dawnguard they simply leave their castle and deal with the problem at hand. Volkihar vampires simply see mortal's as prey/cattle nothing else.

I mean harkon's court pretty much only care about the power plays within the court power structure so they can get the head of the castle position heck some of them like fura and garan no longer care for the politics. Some volkihar have fura philosophy "Eat, sleep and kill"(I like her minus the voice) and some only care for the power plays within their clan structure.

If a volkihar vampire wants to infiltrate mortal affairs they are going to have to be good at magic since in one of the side quests you can ask gunmar how did a vampire get into a jarl court as a visting advisor and he said "They normally use magic to cloud peoples minds". Volkihar can integrate in mortal society if they try hard(with extreme difficulty they have to do it in a place where a town trust them already.) but people will start getting suspicious that your a vampire like sybille I think the jarl court knows but they turn a blind eye to her since they trust her and she helped raise a high king.

The Cyrodiil Vampyrum is the only clan that don't need to use spells and such to blend hence why they are known to be the only clan that can blend into society perfectly they look just like a human when fed. They don't need to make excuses on why their eyes glow or have to wear a helmet because they look like a monster(eg morrowind clans) and they don't need to focus on magic to keep people from being suspicious about their true nature. Thats why people say that the order are the only ones who can blend. Lets not forget vile sphere might have effected them somewhat is another reason why they may want as much power as possible in human society.


When you think of volkihar just simply think of them as the gangrel from the world of darkness and cyrodil vampires ventrue.
No, they "only come out to hunt for prey" meaning they kill their victims, they dont feed on those who sleep. Even if they didnt care about politics they would still live in society just to feed easier. Why would they go "Hey im hungry lets not just walk into town and quietly feed since they cant tell we are vamps, instead lets isolate ourselves from any food source and live fancily in our ice lakes/castles". Poppycock and you KNOW it. They are savage and the Lore doesnt support ANY of DG's stuff around them
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lolli
 
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Post » Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:41 am

Well in my opinion the only thing they did not get right about the volkihar is the powers they fit right on the mark when it comes to personality/clan they are cruel and keep to themselves(This is how I see them being paranoid since they live in a castle feeding off thralls who they most likely capture when people wander the shores harkon said they "Live away from the cares of the world") no where in the immortal blood does it say they are savages. I should of said in my previous post that it was speculation on my part since immortal blood describes them as being paranoid and it is simply my view on why they are.

Spoiler
Heck harkon tries to kill the PC since he thinks you are going to betray him and depending on dialogue choices your PC intends to give harkon the bow yet he attacks you anyway. The whole court system is based on paranoia how do you think harkon has kept his seat for so long? Even the vingalmo tells you not to trust Orthjolf and vice versa with Orthjolf. Thats why I said that volkihar vampires normally worry about power plays within their court since everyone out in the court is out for their position and harkon's position. Cyrodil vampires can concentrate on mortal affairs/politics since they pretty much kill any cyrodil vampire that enters their territory without a good reason

Plus I never said they don't go out to feed or go into a town to feed I said they don't CARE for mortal affairs/politics like the cyrodil vampires. I still think thats keeping to themselves if they only go out to feed. Plus cyrodil vampires simply PREFER to feed on sleeping victims it does not say they are the only ones who do it in the immortal blood book. Nothing in the immortal blood book says that the volkihar cannot do this.

Immortal Blood volkihar extract

Spoiler
The next day, he did return with more questions, these ones very specific. He wanted to know about the vampires of eastern Skyrim. I told him about the most powerful tribe, the Volkihar, paranoid and cruel, whose very breath could freeze their victims' blood in the veins. I explained to him how they lived beneath the ice of remote and haunted lakes, never venturing into the world of men except to feed.

Movarth Piquine listened carefully, and asked more questions into the night, until at last he was ready to leave.

"I will not see you for a few days," he said. "But I will return, and tell you how helpful your information has been."

True to his word, the man returned to my chapel shortly after midnight four days later. There was a fresh scar on his cheek, but he was smiling that grim but satisfied smile of his.

"Your advice helped me very much," he said. "But you should know that the Volkihar have an additional ability you didn't mention. They can reach through the ice of their lakes without breaking it. It was quite a nasty surprise, being grabbed from below without any warning."

"How remarkable," I said with a laugh. "And terrifying. You're lucky you survived."

Nothing here says that they feed on people by dragging them through ice it just seems like to me personally an ability they use to kill people(its unfortuane that this skill is not in by I explain why I think it was not added). In this extract it does not say they are savages it does not say they cannot feed on sleeping people. Plus I never said that volkihar do not go out to feed I was simply explaining why they don't care for human politics and affairs.

On cyrodil vampires

They were cultured, more civilized than the vampires of the provinces, preferring to feed on victims while they were asleep, unaware.

The cyrodil vampires feeding methods are PREFERENCE that means other clans can feed this way if THEY CHOOSE to.

I can see this would not go anywhere we have differing opinions so lets just agree to disagree.
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Céline Rémy
 
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