Did the Legion pick the wrong Region to be Besiegin'?

Post » Thu Dec 02, 2010 2:36 am

Rhyming titles aside, I ask a serious question. Was it the right thing for the Legion to have such a significant role in the Mojave? The Legate and Caesar are put at stake over this land, and depending which becomes canon, could be bad for them. I felt the Legion had its potential, but not in a New Vegas setting. Why? It's not chaotic enough. I feel the Legion would have been better put in a Fallout environment where Raiders are more of a threat, many murderous, thieving gangs prosper and Anarchy is everywhere. The Legion in such a chaotic environment where there isn't a main faction in control, such as NCR, but instead they are fighting over the place. Then, a question could be asked: Sure, siding with the NCR would be the decent thing to do, but aiding the Legion would basically be The Pitt 2.0, where all these gangs and raiders would be brutally cleansed from the land, everybody soaked in blood, but the land redeemed and quiet. In the Mojave though, there is a lot of organization, and the awesomeness the Legion could bring is overshadowed by the fact that all you need to do is do 3 card bounty, and I Fought the Law and BAM, that's most of the regions problems gone right there.

The Legion, IMO, isn't the answer to the Mojave, but they could have been put to better use in a place where any rational person could deliberate whether Nipton on a massive scale is the right thing to do, compared to a different faction who wants to do things differently. They would still get satisfactory endings too.


Just my thoughts on the matter.


AVE, TRUE TO CAESAR MOVE ALONG A NUCLEAR WINTER.
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Kat Stewart
 
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Post » Thu Dec 02, 2010 12:29 am

I agree: Peace through war. If there are no factions left, there is no war.
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Jordan Moreno
 
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Post » Thu Dec 02, 2010 2:47 am

Well it was also wrong for them to have men wear skirts.
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Susan
 
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Post » Thu Dec 02, 2010 4:47 am

Well it was also wrong for them to have men wear skirts.


That means that the scotish did it wrong from the beginning?
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Liii BLATES
 
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Post » Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:08 am

If you took a region that was more chaotic than the Mojave and did have bands of raiders running around pretty much doing to settlements what the Legion did to Nipton then maybe you could justify Caesars methods, but the way it is now House and NCR have pretty much settled the region so there really is no need for the kind of brutality the Legion uses.

It would be cool though to see a situation like that play out in one of the dlc's or a future game, have it start in a area where the Legion is taking control and have it show just how bad things were before Caesar rolled over them and straitened them out. From that standpoint then what the Legion does might actually be better than the alternative.
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Sylvia Luciani
 
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Post » Wed Dec 01, 2010 9:29 pm

Well it was also wrong for them to have men wear skirts.

:facepalm:
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Russell Davies
 
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Post » Thu Dec 02, 2010 3:49 am

:facepalm:

ROFL
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Quick draw II
 
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Post » Thu Dec 02, 2010 7:46 am

From the moment I fight took on a combat role against cl I have asked myself this same question.

They were a bad idea to try to go against a modern military like force.

They have no chance. No one in the mw wants them.
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Marcia Renton
 
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Post » Wed Dec 01, 2010 8:20 pm

Well it was also wrong for them to have men wear skirts.


You got a problem with Legion armor? They can kick nine kinds of ass in a skirt. What have you accomplished in your trousers? Yeah, that's what I thought.
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Amy Masters
 
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Post » Wed Dec 01, 2010 10:08 pm

They are needed though, Caesar needs Vegas to set up his Rome and clash with the NCR that will create the synthesis.
It might not be as blunt as DC but the lands are still filled with corruption and chaos and the Legion's presence is needed.
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Spaceman
 
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Post » Thu Dec 02, 2010 12:10 am

Reason to be beseigin'? They don't need one- societies run by megalomaniac dictatorships bent on world conquest (well, all of the world within reach, anyway) have only one purpose- to own everything in sight and conquer any competitors. And Vegas with its dam is the perfect place for Caesar to build his 'Rome', with plenty of electricity and slaves handy. Whether or not the NCR is corrupt, wicked, weak, or a bunch of perfect angels, doesn't matter- they are there, so they are Legion-fodder. Any evil dictatorship worth its salt has to have an Enemy #1 against which to aim their propaganda, and to rattle thier sabers at to get the troops all riled up. The NCR fills the bill nicely. It isn't about whether the area is already stable or not, or could easily be made so by the powers already in place- Caesar could care less about any of that. It's about conquest, baby! It's about ideology and power, not the happiness and comfort of the people in the target zone.

Now, as for how he goes about it, that is pretty stupid. Only a fool (and presumably Caesar isn't supposed to be one) would make their main attack a frontal one against a heavily defended dam. All they would have to do is make a show there to hold the main NCR force, while sending the bulk of their Legions across the river at Cottonwood Cove and such, and swing north through Novac and maybe a secondary force through Primm/Sloan. There aren't any significant bottlenecks guarding the Novac approach route, so the NCR army would have to face the superior Legion numbers out in the open. Game over. Also, that move would cut off the NCR supply route through Camp Mojave. And when this flanking attack forced the NCR to pull most of their troops off of the Dam to confront it... well, things would be lookin bleak all over for the brown troopers.
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Genocidal Cry
 
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Post » Wed Dec 01, 2010 9:44 pm

The Legion were better off at Flagstaff.
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natalie mccormick
 
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Post » Wed Dec 01, 2010 6:30 pm

The NCR has the biggest army in the wasteland...per the wiki.
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Leilene Nessel
 
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Post » Thu Dec 02, 2010 2:25 am

The NCR has the biggest army in the wasteland...per the wiki.


Although it's not the best trained outside of the Rangers.
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Stryke Force
 
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Post » Thu Dec 02, 2010 8:29 am

The NCR holds an opposite idilogy to the legion. If Caeser can't beat the NCR then the legion doesn't deserve to survive. He has to prove the legion is right and better.

Now, as for how he goes about it, that is pretty stupid. Only a fool (and presumably Caesar isn't supposed to be one) would make their main attack a frontal one against a heavily defended dam.

What frontal assault? so many people call it that but it wasn't. The bulk of the legion enters the dam via the intake tunnels completely bypassing the NCR defense and sending the troopers into disarray. Its not a frontal assault when you sneak in the back door..

Once the dam falls and Oliver with it, the NCR retreats from Camp Gulf and McCarren and a prolonged fight is avoided. A large force moving into Cottonwood Cove would be noticed and possibly interceptd by troops from Camp Gulf and McCarren. Hit them hard it them fast then send em running
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Bambi
 
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Post » Thu Dec 02, 2010 8:01 am

Reason to be beseigin'? They don't need one- societies run by megalomaniac dictatorships bent on world conquest (well, all of the world within reach, anyway) have only one purpose- to own everything in sight and conquer any competitors. And Vegas with its dam is the perfect place for Caesar to build his 'Rome', with plenty of electricity and slaves handy. Whether or not the NCR is corrupt, wicked, weak, or a bunch of perfect angels, doesn't matter- they are there, so they are Legion-fodder. Any evil dictatorship worth its salt has to have an Enemy #1 against which to aim their propaganda, and to rattle thier sabers at to get the troops all riled up. The NCR fills the bill nicely. It isn't about whether the area is already stable or not, or could easily be made so by the powers already in place- Caesar could care less about any of that. It's about conquest, baby! It's about ideology and power, not the happiness and comfort of the people in the target zone.

Now, as for how he goes about it, that is pretty stupid. Only a fool (and presumably Caesar isn't supposed to be one) would make their main attack a frontal one against a heavily defended dam. All they would have to do is make a show there to hold the main NCR force, while sending the bulk of their Legions across the river at Cottonwood Cove and such, and swing north through Novac and maybe a secondary force through Primm/Sloan. There aren't any significant bottlenecks guarding the Novac approach route, so the NCR army would have to face the superior Legion numbers out in the open. Game over. Also, that move would cut off the NCR supply route through Camp Mojave. And when this flanking attack forced the NCR to pull most of their troops off of the Dam to confront it... well, things would be lookin bleak all over for the brown troopers.

Dividing one's troops in the face of superior numbers is about the worst thing a commander can do unless his opposite number is totally incompetent, which General Oliver is not. Paralyzed by indecision, yes, but not incompetent (remember, he svckered the Legion into a trap and trashed them the last time the two sides fought). The NCR has multiple outposts within sight of the Colorado river which would detect any attempt to move a large enough force to make a flanking maneuver worth bothering with, at which point Oliver would send all those Rangers and Heavy troops at the dam across to assault the now (greatly) reduced Legion force under Lanius, which would result in the flanking force itself being flanked and the NCR having a large body of troops right next to Caesar's HQ.

You see, the thing about a show of force is that it's done with a relatively small number of soldiers, as the idea is to make the enemy commander think that your main force is still there and coming for him when it's actually elsewhere attempting to either surround him or cut him off, as applicable. The problem with attempting such tactics here is that both banks of the river at this point are sheer cliffs aside from Cottonwood Cove and Deathclaw Promontory, and as such there are only a couple of places any landing could possibly be made. Since that is the case it's fairly easy to predict where the Legion would pop up at, and those locations are themselves surrounded by cliffs until you get inland. It's true there are no bottlenecks around, say, Novac, but the Legion troops would have to get that far first, and there are only a couple of routes by which this could be done which are themselves readily sealed off given the advance warning the riverside outposts will deliver. Hell, the area between Camp Forlorn Hope and Nelson is already heavily mined by both sides, since they realize that it's the only viable way to get to or from the river landing down the hill.

Since Caesar sees New Vegas as his 'Rome', it is by definition the 'right' place to be besieging, however he's going the wrong way about doing so. Rather than committing to a frontal assault on what is likely the best-fortified location within 500 miles he should have taken his troops far North or South of it and attacked it indirectly by forcing the NCR to react to his maneuvers by shifting their troops to a more exposed location where the Legion's mobility advantage can be exploited for all it's worth. Contrast this with an assault across the top of the dam, which is a sniper's paradise; with sufficient ammunition a handful of NCR Veteran troopers could hold it against hundreds of times their numbers by holing up in the towers and blasting anything that moves. Of course, in practice that doesn't actually work since the Legion figured out that the intake pipes were not being watched, but in terms of tactical assessment it's exactly what would happen.
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Jenna Fields
 
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Post » Thu Dec 02, 2010 4:39 am

You got a problem with Legion armor? They can kick nine kinds of ass in a skirt. What have you accomplished in your trousers? Yeah, that's what I thought.


http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1165210-modded-fallout-new-vegas-screenshot-thread-6/page__view__findpost__p__17409465
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ShOrty
 
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Post » Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:21 am

Well it was also wrong for them to have men wear skirts.


The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Watch want to have a word with you.
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Je suis
 
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Post » Wed Dec 01, 2010 7:28 pm

Oliver is incompetent. He got his post through nepotism. Instead of harassing the Legion with skirmishes, he sits at the dam with his thumbs up his butt. He leaves everywhere else woefully under-defended, he plans to use the Rangers in a manner which they are ill-suited, and IIRC, it was not Oliver who had the "Blow Up Boulder City", but Chief Hanlon, Which is why Oliver has an inferiority complex towards Hanlon; He and his Rangers got all the glory in the first DamWar.

Boone says it: Hsu would have those General's Stars if Oliver didn't know the President.
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Carys
 
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Post » Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:16 am

It'd be interesting to see what'd happen if the Legion arrived at The Pitt.

Lanius vs. Ashur? Now, there's a fight I'd pay to see!

Maybe we'll hear a rumour about it in a future game or DLC?
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emily grieve
 
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Post » Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:06 am

LOL, i wonder how the Legion would fair against the enclave?
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Marion Geneste
 
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Post » Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:16 am

LOL, i wonder how the Legion would fair against the enclave?

They would get owned so hard they would have to call there mommas.

But yah CL is in the wrong place at the wrong time. They need to go they shouldn't never came its the wrong place for them. How about they go mess with the Midwestern BOS...(see how the BOS there owns them)
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adam holden
 
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Post » Wed Dec 01, 2010 6:25 pm

Legion vs the Masters stupid mutant army?

Caesar is smart enough to know that Stealth Boys are technology.. what about lower level grunts?

Legion A "Whoa look at that weird heat shimmer over the...."

Legion B "What the hell, did that magic invisible monst....."

Nightkin A "THIS is why the Master wants rid of humans.. Didn't realise they were so dumb, and whats with the skirts??"

Nightkin B "AHA"
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BRAD MONTGOMERY
 
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Post » Thu Dec 02, 2010 6:11 am

Rather than committing to a frontal assault on what is likely the best-fortified location within 500 miles he should have taken his troops far North or South of it and attacked it indirectly by forcing the NCR to react to his maneuvers by shifting their troops to a more exposed location where the Legion's mobility advantage can be exploited for all it's worth. Contrast this with an assault across the top of the dam


It is not a frontal assault. Sending your troops up the intake tunnels and catching the defenders unware. IS not in any universe a frontal assault. If you can sneak hundreds of soldiers inside the best fortified location in 500 miles you exploit that weakness before they close it up. So when the dust settles that fortification is yours.
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Invasion's
 
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Post » Wed Dec 01, 2010 6:13 pm

They are needed though, Caesar needs Vegas to set up his Rome and clash with the NCR that will create the synthesis.
It might not be as blunt as DC but the lands are still filled with corruption and chaos and the Legion's presence is needed.


And therein lies the rub. Caeser's presence in the Mojave has no noble goals. He wants a castle, a big shiny one with high walls, so that he feels important.

He's more concerned with attacking the NCR in a literal power grab (Hoover Dam) than his proposed goals of forced civility upon the dissolute masses.

And the best part is, both goals are doomed to failure. Even if you play a CL game, and help them win every battle, Legate Lanius himself says that the Legion forces are much better suited to taking positions rather than holding them. The only places CL holds are barren desert with no appreciable value. The CL capital is Flagstaff. And with apologies to anyone who lives in Flagstaff currently, it's not exactly prime real estate. (I'm guessing the trees didn't survive the war)

In the end, the truth is simple: the guy who claims to be the son of a god, has a big ego. Who'd have guessed. And his ego has driven him towards this futile goal, in hopes of a memorable swan song.
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Chloe :)
 
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