Foreign languages, trivial history facts, science information, English/grammar rules...
Alot is memorization.

How on earth are you supposed to learn trivial history facts or grammar rules by anything other than memorization?

grammar, being a part of linguistics, is arbitrary and only has semantic value and use (and therefore the only way to learn it is memorization). historical facts being... historical, can also only be learned through memorization.

As for foreign languages, you can only get so far with memorization. Both math and science, at least as far back as I can remember, they always have explained and proven formulas and theories. In my upper division math classes, having to do a couple of proofs on every test was commonplace. Of course in the real world always having to derive formulas presents a number of problems: it'd slow down advancement and it's more error prone. It's an important skill to have (which is why I'm glad I was tested on them), but to expect everyone to be able to derive formulas, especially at lower levels of math where the ability to simply do the math is more important for real-life purposes than understanding why it is the way it is, I don't think it's a terribly bad way to teach (so long as the proofs are covered so those that are planning on moving forward can learn them)

History, of course you need memorization. Grammar, you don't. I learned grammar easier because I learned how the rules apply to different words and the origins of them.

Not in Australia, in Queensland you get history facts and can choose to memorise them or just try and understand the ramifications, but when it comes to the exam you are assessed on how you anolyse the facts, not on if you know them word for word.
You get to know grammar rules through practice and spelling tests rather than just dictating them and you get marked on how you apply scientific facts rather than how well you know them.
I'd like to see someone learn a foreign language without any memorisation.

So in other words, you memorised the rules and how the applied to different words and their origins?

I find it incredibly weird that you are able to spell words right by being able to derive grammar rules given their complete arbitrary and non-uniform application.

I could do plenty more examples if my brain wasn't fried. Grammar is arbitrary because language is arbitrary. It's impossible to learn the rules any way other than memorization because the rules are not consistently followed.

You could learn by experience for most everyday words, but to do that you'd need to be corrected every time you made a mistake which you would need to go to school for.

It's a simple matter of communication really. Would most people understand what's being conveyed? If yes, then the grammar and spelling is pointless, and only an annoyance to the pedantic, and there sure as hell is a significant number of them in recent years. To expect perfection or even near perfection when there's variables such as English not being a first language, or a learning disability/dyslexia/whatever else, people should appreciate the fact that there even is a language that so well known throughout the world.

Anyhow, more related to OP, I notice he missed connections. Connections matter even more than the piece of paper called a degree. The piece of paper can show an intangible thing to a place of employment that you have the ability to finish what you start but that alone doesn't inherently mean you have the drive to network. People who can communicate and can network can get things done, and those are generally the people picked first. Where I don't like education going is, in North America at least, is it's becoming more political correct social indoctrination based on this facade of promoting individuality and the notion of minority voice, when in fact it's promoting populist and politically correct ideals. Social aspects of school, in the classroom and around the school, are just as important as what's taught in classroom, and the level of eggshells schools make children walk, and the type of bubble they can move around in which doesn't promote personal growth, makes me slightly irate.

I always tell people that "me want sandwich" and "may I please have a sandwich" are the same thing. It's true, more or less. After all, isn't the point of a language to be able to communicate your thoughts? Both phrases do that with ease.

I agree completely with you Exorince, furthermore the concept of networking that Third Eye mentioned is also an important part in job-seeking, and many other facets of life. When I have something important to hand in like documentation (CV, paperwork, assignments), I always go out of my way to seek out the relevant people and hand it to them in person. They then associate my face with the documentation, and when looking through all the documents later, they associate mine with my face.

This ties into the concept of familiarity; say for example, you've been recommended for a job by a current employee. When the person going through the applications sees your resume, and the recommendation from a current employee, a tiny little motor starts whirring in their mind. I know this employee, I work with them, trust (or don't trust) their judgement. Through the current employee, you are now more familar to them than any other applicant.

In most cases, it's not what you know, but who you know.

Education is a necessity, however the "amount" of education you need becomes a debate.

A person needs to be well rounded in order to function in society. As a result they need to know basic written communications so they can talk with one another. Even now I get the feeling kids are going to slowly evolve to the point they won't know how to write their own names. Instead they will practice on how fast they can type it into a computer. After written communication you need mathematical skills to figure out various aspects of your life.

Knowing the difference between the ability to afford 4 apples at $1.29 and $1.60 can be crucial. That extra 31 cents/coins can make or break a person living on a tight budget. If a person can figure out how to do simple addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division they need to know about science. Knowing about physical science can help them gain a better grasp of the world around them. This way they aren't "dumbfounded" when they combine X with Y producing something new saying it is "magic".

However, after you get beyond the basics of Math, Science, and Written Communication it becomes an issue of how much knowledge you need to function in the real world. Is the average person going to need to know the circumference of a circle that's 3feet in diameter? No, they aren't going to need to know that since it won't come up often enough in life. If they are doing something related highly to that field such as construction then yes they will need to know about it.


Sadly, education is necessary though it is taking a back seat to DWE "documented work experience" which gets your foot in the door. A person could have a PH.D. right now in every single field of study known to humanity, yet without that DWE they are screwed. There are people with GED's that have more potential to get work because of their experience. This to me is a bit of a slap in the face to those who poured their work into getting degrees being told that degree would grant them a job in the world.

Almost feels like the world is progressing to the point that as a baby you will have to be born with experience in a particular field to even have a chance at life.

Basically Education = Necessary, but Experience>Education

First things first: great thread

Personally I couldn't agree more, and for that reason I shall say no more, other than I do believe uni itself is great, if you are at the course you want to be in and in a good uni with a good, dedicated staff and students (for the environment of the class itself) because that's where you really learn things that will be needed and useful in a future career (although I suppose you could say that even those things could be learnt by yourself, but nevertheless I think that should more of a complement), not to mention important contacts you make and the experience you might get during that.

I'm on the road to getting a PhD in English without any plans to make money for the sole reason that I'm a latent genius.

It is a pretty subjective topic but i do feel that education is needed for a realistic plan to be gainfully employed. The level of education you need to receive will vary, depending on which job market you plan on entering, the location that you are looking for that work in, how many other people are vying for that type of job and where on the ladder you want to start working in that job field.

I know it is kind of a "No [censored], Sherlock" statement, but education is necessary in a job where education is necessary. There are ways around a formal education, such as apprenticeships, but that is still an education of sorts. I think the idea is to get an education that will make you stand out from everyone else. There are so many ways to differentiate yourself from the pack. Obviously people that go to good schools will look good on a resume, but it could be as easy as taking courses that aren’t being taken by everyone under the sun or going into a field that is in need of a bigger work force.
Trade schools can be great, because from what I understand, most people are looking for jobs in the service sector. Even the military can be a great rout, balancing education and on job training and experience.

To be sure there will always be a certain amount of nepotism and cronyism out there, but I gotta stick with chance favoring the prepared mixed with setting yourself apart from the group.

I second this

So you're secretly smart?

It is in my state---if you want book or computer smarts stay away from Oklahoma. If you want the next best collage or NFL football (no not soccer) player then welcome to Oklahoma!!!

In a sense. I only have an eighth grade education up until these past 12 credit hours and they've always tried to harness my intelligence since kindergarten.

I think the OP is very interesting but it doesn't completely answer the question of the title. The post seems to be about whether education, from an individual perspective, is useful for getting a job. I agree with the OP that education is not actually all that necessary for landing a job, however I do think it is very useful for a society as a whole. I think education is one of the pillars of our societies (this word being mentioned in the title of the thread).
Our societies are extremely pro-individuals, which makes them somewhat loose. Education brings together kids from very different backgrounds, who probably would've never met or interacted if they hadn't been to the same schools. Education makes us conscious that we live in a society, and that we're not just individuals who go through with life without any connection to those who surround us. It also gives us some common general knowledge. In a way, education is the best way to help bring some sense of cohesion to our very loose societies. Because of that, yes I think education is very useful in our society.
I do not believe that the concept of society is a thing of the past, nor that societies never really existed.
In a sense, I sometimes think that the first goal of "education" is not to teach children but to keep societies from falling apart.


Now, from an individual perspective I agree that education in its current state is not really very efficient. It really seems to be geared towards getting a piece of paper rather than actually teaching you useful things that you will have a use for. But I'm not going into this, the OP already covered it quite well. Great post.

Sorry if my post is a little off topic, it's just what I thought of when I read the title of the thread

I wanted you to answer that question since I don't know the answer. I was just trying to get a proper debate going really, relationship threads, fallout / tes threads and unofficial whatever threads aren't much fun when you've been here for over 6 years.


Of course I realize that you're not going to make a living as a doctor or a teacher unless you've finished the formal education required. I'm more concerned about the state of formal education below university level. It seems like an awful waste of time because the schools and teachers are focusing on the wrong things. That's my opinion anyway.

It's like a marriage, and this is some kind of student-teacher roleplay.

Great thread but almost everything I was going to say has been said. The one thing I have left is that I think we should change the education system radically. At the moment kids and young advlts are learning because they have to. I think if we taught people the quest for knowledge and the desire to learn at a young age instead of them learning begrudgingly we would have a much better system of education.

an anecdote to empezise this theory. at my high school i often shared the same classes with all the honor students (it was a small high school). they all ways studied real hard and got straight A's / top grades. compared to me, an individual who has never studied for any test in their entire life, and got an average grade of mid to low B's.

now when the days came and went when we had retention exams, which was basicly a test we all had to pass that confirmed that we knew the minimal required amount of information taught in all our classes from the previous 3 years, i passed first try (barely) and nearly every single honor student failed their first try and passed on the second.

the reason why, and the point of this anecdote, is because they could not remember the information the had cram sessions for a years past because once they were finished with that class they had more cram studies for the next class. while i paid as much attention to the information given by the instructor and retained more of that knowledge. people should worry less about grades and how much of the information is actually retained. The education process in the classroom itself is more important than what the student does at home, studying and home work is good in the sense of using what you learned in class. However, should not be used as a substitute for actual education.

Ha, you're right of course. Wouldn't make much sense to ask the question if you already knew the answer My first sentence was just a way to introduce my post.
I can imagine relationship and gaming threads getting boring after 6 years... :/

That said, i comend Exo for making a constructive/conversation building topic. rather than posting "oh, this thread again" since the 200 post limit excludes many people from getting to participate in previously mention topics.

On topic:

also there are alot of skills you can learn/earn in the work place that are career building and just about garuantee you a job for the rest of your life. the only one that i can think of at the moment is a fork lift certification, not every one has one of those and there are alot of places that need the use of fork lifts. Their easy to get if you pursue them and your just about garuanteed to get a job that pays at least $14 dollars an hour, which is pretty good if you have no education back ground.

Kids these days don't even think about going to trade school. only college. If you go and become a plumber, you will be making a lot more by the time you are 30 than if you got a PhD in something.