[Benito Martinez]

It would... but why? I doubt anyone on these (or the Obsidian) forums would want 2d graphics... These days the benefit is negligible.

It's a bit off topic I guess (and I was really kidding anyway) but I'll answer that: 3D graphics with top-down view for me equals the added frustration of having to constantly re-adjusting the camera and no actual visual benefit (no curves & too many corners etc.) - but even if I thought that 3D looked better I'd still happily trade eye candy for usability (the substantially increased storage space that 2D requires would be an issue a few years ago but today I could live with that too)


Edit: of course I'm strictly talking about top-down view not first person (in which 2D would be possibly unfeasible but in any case utterly ridiculous - except perhaps in a 'slide show' kind of approach which I would not suggest for an RGP... then again... hmm...) - just to make that clear again.

[Antonio Gigliotta]

I actually liked struggling with the camera in Obsidian games like KOTOR 2 & NWN 2 + expansions. It was the only thing that made these games remotely challenging.

[Nauty]

It's a bit off topic I guess (and I was really kidding anyway) but I'll answer that: 3D graphics with top-down view for me equals the added frustration of having to constantly re-adjusting the camera and no actual visual benefit (no curves & too many corners etc.) - but even if I thought that 3D looked better I'd still happily trade eye candy for usability (the substantially increased storage space that 2D requires would be an issue a few years ago but today I could live with that too)


Edit: of course I'm strictly talking about top-down view not first person (in which 2D would be possibly unfeasible but in any case utterly ridiculous - except perhaps in a 'slide show' kind of approach which I would not suggest for an RGP... then again... hmm...) - just to make that clear again.

This is odd then.

• Many "top down" 3d games will just tow the camera along behind the PC with no user input, (though personally I'd prefer an unlocked camera for a Fallout game ~similar to the one in Dawn of War).
  
• How is it that 2d requires more storage space than 3d?
  (when every 3d model in FO3 has at least two 2D textures instead of one)
  
• There are several 2d FPP games that run blazing fast, and without 3D accelerators (Doom and Duke Nukem among them, but also
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bziwQU_CAOQ is among them and it is definitely an RPG.)
  
• Riven is not exactly an RPG ~but not exactly not one either... Its an FPP adventure, and has 2d "3d" graphics just like Fallout 1, it shipped around the time Fallout did, and still has better graphics than Fallout 3 :shrug:
  *Edit: Actually I meant to say Oblivion... FO3 has some amazing landscape. (but Riven ~even in 8 bit color, has incredible scenes)

*LOL2 gameplay...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whSTSMnZ1Hs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2i66545sMU&feature=related

[Far'ed K.G.h.m]

[*]Many "top down" 3d games will just tow the camera along behind the PC with no user input.

Will they? I will believe you, though I admit I haven't played any of them - or I'm simply more quirky than you
The Witcher was the only one I've played that did it successfully enough by default for my 'taste'. Other games had the option, sure, but I never found it satisfying enough.
In fact even the Witcher gave me a bit of trouble - but I suppose I just got used to it easily because it didn't give me an alternative. (which is bad, I know... though it did work for me)
Keep in mind that I'm not talking about over the shoulder or anything like that.

[*]How is it that 2d requires more storage space than 3d?

Meh... don't know... I just assumed it - I just remembered Morrowind coming in a single CD and Baldur's Gate in 5. It just seemed to make sense. :shrug:
But if I'm wrong... well... even better for me

[*]There are several 2d FPP games that run blazing fast, and without 3D accelerators (Doom and Duke Nukem among them, but also
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bziwQU_CAOQ is among them and it is definitely an RPG.)

Those are pretty old so I can't get a clear idea of their advantages though - Would someone have a reason to choose to do it like that today?

[*]Riven is not exactly an RPG ~but not exactly not one either... Its an FPP adventure, and has 2d "3d" graphics just like Fallout 1, it shipped around the time Fallout did, and still has better graphics than Fallout 3 :shrug:

Riven was what I had in mind when I wrote about the 'slide show' approach being an exception.

[jesse villaneda]

Will they? I will believe you, though I admit I haven't played any of them - or I'm simply more quirky than you
The Witcher was the only one I've played that did it successfully enough by default for my 'taste'. Other games had the option, sure, but I never found it satisfying enough.
In fact even the Witcher gave me a bit of trouble - but I suppose I just got used to it easily because it didn't give me an alternative. (which is bad, I know... though it did work for me)
Keep in mind that I'm not talking about over the shoulder or anything like that.

I was thinking Tombraider and NWN (though both allow an option of camera control).

Meh... don't know... I just assumed it - I just remembered Morrowind coming in a single CD and Baldur's Gate in 5. It just seemed to make sense. :shrug:
But if I'm wrong... well... even better for me

Baldur's Gate had a lot of audio and "larger than full screen" painted backdrops, but the unit graphics were composite sprites.

Those are pretty old so I can't get a clear idea of their advantages though - Would someone have a reason to choose to do it like that today?

Hand-held platforms that might lack the power in some cases (or simply universal system requirements that allow your app to run on any class PC/Mac)

See http://www.avernum.com/

Really though, if the game does not call for the benefits of a 3d engine... why bother to make one for it? :shrug:
For FPP games, 3d makes all the sense in the world, but a well done 2d or 2.5D game can be just as fun.

On the other hand... What they've done with Diablo3 is to exploit the benefits of a 3d engine in a series with gameplay that only needs 2d.
~But as I said before... The benefits of 2d are negligible these days (unless you have a reason).

Riven was what I had in mind when I wrote about the \'slide show\' approach being an exception.

Myst 3 suffered a drop in video quality, but gained a limited pseudo 3D-like rotation.

[Claire]

Meh... don't know... I just assumed it - I just remembered Morrowind coming in a single CD and Baldur's Gate in 5. It just seemed to make sense. :shrug:
But if I'm wrong... well... even better for me

Depends, Morrowind was compressed well and most of it was pretty ugly out of the box whereas Baldur's Gate wasn't compressed well, and had beautiful hand drawn and hand painted environments. Even when Baldur's Gate was compressed better (including the expansion) in the "Original Saga" re-release it was only cut down to three discs which is still more than Morrowind.

Size comes down to the quality of the visuals and audio. Baldur's Gate had as I previously pointed out beautiful hand drawn and hand painted environments as well as more voice work than Morrowind, more cinematic cutscenes than Morrowind, and a lot of varied music. On the other hand Morrowind had low quality textures, simplistic meshes, minimal cinematics, a very limited musical score, and minimal voice acting. To top it off Morrowind was probably compressed much better than Baldur's Gate was.

[Fiori Pra]

Depends, Morrowind was compressed well and most of it was pretty ugly out of the box whereas Baldur's Gate wasn't compressed well, and had beautiful hand drawn and hand painted environments. Even when Baldur's Gate was compressed better (including the expansion) in the "Original Saga" re-release it was only cut down to three discs which is still more than Morrowind.

Size comes down to the quality of the visuals and audio. Baldur's Gate had as I previously pointed out beautiful hand drawn and hand painted environments as well as more voice work than Morrowind, more cinematic cutscenes than Morrowind, and a lot of varied music. On the other hand Morrowind had low quality textures, simplistic meshes, minimal cinematics, a very limited musical score, and minimal voice acting. To top it off Morrowind was probably compressed much better than Baldur's Gate was.

most Infinity games had a neat trick with the music, in that it was often actually very short ~short clips that were chained together seamlessly to allow on the fly alterations in the score as the circumstances changed in the game.

[Devils Cheek]

Gizmo my friend you tend to think in a much larger scale than I do.
for instance I did not consider any platforms other than the pc as part of my argument.

(Yet, perhaps surprisingly enough, I have played all the games you mentioned - with the exception of Myst 3 and I have only played the demo of the very first Tomb Raider)
Since I also lack the in-depth technical knowledge, as well as some more basic 'gamer lingo' it seems I need to get my terms straight:
I understand 'isometric' refers strictly to 2D games right? But think the position of the camera in an isometric game such as Fallout1 or Baldur's Gate - that's the 'top-down' view I was talking about - if it's wrong or ambiguous then do tell me what the correct term is so that we can avoid further confusion.
As such I wasn't thinking of the likes of Tomb Raider which I do consider a game perfectly fitting for 3D.


But still:

Really though, if the game does not call for the benefits of a 3d engine... why bother to make one for it? :shrug:

This is pretty much exactly my point.

~But as I said before... The benefits of 2d are negligible these days (unless you have a reason).

I read in a magazine article recently the claim that only AAA production manage to achieve 3D graphics quality that equal or surpass that of 2D graphics of cheaper productions.
Granted it was about adventure games but still... I though that confirmed my opinion that 3D is more expensive and time consuming than 2D of the same quality, though maybe that's not true, what do you think?
I, as a professional designer (and illustrator when the need arises - which is very often) always prefer to put something together in Photoshop & Illustrator for both speed and quality, rather than get into my chaotic 3D design programs (that I can also use fairly well) unless there is no other choice.

[Mandi Norton]

I read in a magazine article recently the claim that only AAA production manage to achieve 3D graphics quality that equal or surpass that of 2D graphics of cheaper productions.
Granted it was about adventure games but still... I though that confirmed my opinion that 3D is more expensive and time consuming than 2D of the same quality, though maybe that's not true, what do you think?
I, as a professional designer (and illustrator when the need arises - which is very often) always prefer to put something together in Photoshop & Illustrator for both speed and quality, rather than get into my chaotic 3D design programs (that I can also use fairly well) unless there is no other choice.

IMO making hand-drawn 2D backgrounds take more time & effort than building blocks in 3D & painting them with textures...

[NO suckers In Here]

IMO making hand-drawn 2D backgrounds take more time & effort than building blocks in 3D & painting them with textures...

In my experience, it's about the same, all things considered. Maybe weighing a bit more on 3D as more time-consuming. For 2D, I just have to draw the sprites. Sure, that's a lot of sprites, but as in 3D, a lot of those are repeated. Either way - if you want something in the game, you have to design it somehow. In 2D, that's just one step. In 3D, you first have to build the model, then you still have to texture it. Either way, I'm still going into Photoshop, GIMP, or whatever, and making a 2D image. In my experience, making a texture for a 3D model can be a lot more work - simply because you have to take into account how it's going to wrap around the object.

[Christina Trayler]

To be honest I think they need to make a few adjustments to the enemy AI. Instead of having enemies with ridiculous HP I would rather have AI with some inteligence so that we could have larger firefights and not just these really overpowered enemies that That you have to waste your ammo on when the guy should have been dead 400 shots ago.

[KIng James]

Many games that are claimed to be hand painted are in fact modeled 3D scenes that are rendered to 2D with a ray-tracer. The only isometric game with hand-painted backgrounds instead of 3D ray-traced i know is revenent.

http://www.file-extensions.org/imgs/app-picture/2883/revenant.jpg
http://www.activewin.com/reviews/software/games/r/images/revenant_2.jpg
http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/screenshots/0/139180/revenant_790screen004.jpg

It's a different art style and I wouldn't say no to a modern game with beautiful hand-painted backgrounds.

[Josh Dagreat]

:lol: Gizmo my friend you tend to think in a much larger scale than I do.
for instance I did not consider any platforms other than the pc as part of my argument.

(Yet, perhaps surprisingly enough, I have played all the games you mentioned - with the exception of Myst 3 and I have only played the demo of the very first Tomb Raider)
Since I also lack the in-depth technical knowledge, as well as some more basic 'gamer lingo' it seems I need to get my terms straight:
I understand 'isometric' refers strictly to 2D games right? But think the position of the camera in an isometric game such as Fallout1 or Baldur's Gate - that's the 'top-down' view I was talking about - if it's wrong or ambiguous then do tell me what the correct term is so that we can avoid further confusion.
As such I wasn't thinking of the likes of Tomb Raider which I do consider a game perfectly fitting for 3D.

But still:

This is pretty much exactly my point.

I read in a magazine article recently the claim that only AAA production manage to achieve 3D graphics quality that equal or surpass that of 2D graphics of cheaper productions.
Granted it was about adventure games but still... I though that confirmed my opinion that 3D is more expensive and time consuming than 2D of the same quality, though maybe that's not true, what do you think?
I, as a professional designer (and illustrator when the need arises - which is very often) always prefer to put something together in Photoshop & Illustrator for both speed and quality, rather than get into my chaotic 3D design programs (that I can also use fairly well) unless there is no other choice.

Top down (as I understand it) means http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hycOPeYp60Q ~Though I've used it to [incorrectly] describe Fallout and Baldur's Gate.

ISOmetric is odd... technically its a way to project... well http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trimetric_projection. Fallout was not Isometric (IIRC it was Trimetric); Funny thing is, that many many people [including many developers] use "Isometric" to describe a wide angle third person view (for which I don't know the real name ~if there is one). The Witcher was described as Isometric by one of its own devs'.

What many seem to mean when they say 2d is "tile based". [Though Doom is also 2d, most Build engine games (like Duke 3d) are ~mostly 2d (though Shadow warrior and maybe Blood have a kind of Voxel model for certain objects like lamp posts and such).

IMO making hand-drawn 2D backgrounds take more time & effort than building blocks in 3D & painting them with textures...

It depends on the artist (and their preferred medium ~3D/2D ; and on the subject matter itself).

Many games that are claimed to be hand painted are in fact modeled 3D scenes that are rendered to 2D with a ray-tracer. The only isometric game with hand-painted backgrounds instead of 3D ray-traced i know is revenent.

http://www.file-extensions.org/imgs/app-picture/2883/revenant.jpg
http://www.activewin.com/reviews/software/games/r/images/revenant_2.jpg
http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/screenshots/0/139180/revenant_790screen004.jpg

It's a different art style and I wouldn't say no to a modern game with beautiful hand-painted backgrounds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aDh_O3FQWY comes to mind. Baldur's Gate was certainly 3d renders (they show the wireframes for some in the game credits).
Also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GuW9t_recs (though I'm not sure about the unit animations... In the game they exist as single PNG files, but they may have originally been 3d renders :shrug:... they don't look it to me).

[Destinyscharm]

I hpoe you can see more talking Deathclaws.

[Lance Vannortwick]

What will be fascinating to me is how Obsidian handles modding. As we all know Bethesda supports the modding community better than most gaming companies, and goes out of their way to release resources that we can use in our mods.

Being that New Vegas is based on the same engine and uses the GECK, it stands to reason that as soon as it's released, we will be able to load-up the plug-ins and masters and start haxing away with our own mods... Given how open the technology is to reading the content, and given how pervasive tools like FO3Edit are that can dig into ESP/ESMs at the sub-atomic level, it makes me wonder if it would even be Possible or Likely that Obsidian could hide the content from GECKers - unless they specifically code in protections somehow.

My hope is that Obsidian will follow the fine traditions of Bethesda and support the modding community. After all, we have helped Bethesda in finding and fixing bugs, reporting issues and taking their content in directions the game makers didn't even think of. Being one that's totally hooked on modding, I wouldn't look highly on the game if it took that away.

Ausir's wiki (excellent BTW) doesn't make any mention of this particular factiod yet, has anyone heard anything about New Vegas and modding? I think it will go a long way to keeping Fallout re-freshes long after the release if they support us!

Miax

[Calum Campbell]

What will be fascinating to me is how Obsidian handles modding. As we all know Bethesda supports the modding community better than most gaming companies, and goes out of their way to release resources that we can use in our mods.

Being that New Vegas is based on the same engine and uses the GECK, it stands to reason that as soon as it's released, we will be able to load-up the plug-ins and masters and start haxing away with our own mods... Given how open the technology is to reading the content, and given how pervasive tools like FO3Edit are that can dig into ESP/ESMs at the sub-atomic level, it makes me wonder if it would even be Possible or Likely that Obsidian could hide the content from GECKers - unless they specifically code in protections somehow.

My hope is that Obsidian will follow the fine traditions of Bethesda and support the modding community. After all, we have helped Bethesda in finding and fixing bugs, reporting issues and taking their content in directions the game makers didn't even think of. Being one that's totally hooked on modding, I wouldn't look highly on the game if it took that away.

Ausir's wiki (excellent BTW) doesn't make any mention of this particular factiod yet, has anyone heard anything about New Vegas and modding? I think it will go a long way to keeping Fallout re-freshes long after the release if they support us!

Miax

Obsidian Entertainment has done a fine job in regards to the modding community with NWN2. I would assume, since the game is using Fallout 3's engine, that all will be well where mods for New Vegas are concerned.

[Mariana]

Things I want to see in new vegas:

about vats:
1. more vats animations
2. more thing to do in vats (like you can cancel vats when you want to, or move in vats)
3. more turn based vats (you make attack (not your all vats attack in a row) in vats and then enemy makes his/hers/its attack)
4. make it less like a godmode

about RT combat:
1. fix the crappy melee (I would prefer something like in dark messiah)
2. aiming throught ironfight with ranged weapons
3. you can make short speed boosts
4. slow motion jet woul be cool

about quests:
1. more sidequests (also guests that are linkid together like moira's survival guide)
2. because it's nevada obsidian must make mad max quests with drivable car and bikes (or ridable bramin)
3. plz no hippy main questline
4. more sidequests

about world:
1. world should be less dense than in FO3 (not too much animal spawn point because it's anoying to stop every 10 seconds to beat up some molerats)
2. more movie like scenes (gob hitting radio or prime lifted with crane and hitting to a wall)
3. more diffirent creatures
4. more weapons (game with shotguns and zombies must have pump-action shotgats, MUST!!!!!)
5. balanced weapons (whats the point to pick up chinese pistol when 10mm pistol is better and you get it from the start?)
6. plz add that you can see your own body in first person

[KU Fint]

Yeah, talking about the ways New Vegas could be more like the old Fallout games, while still in the same gameplay style as Fallout 3, is pretty on-topic I would think. Let's just all make sure our comments are read and written in that vein.

Somewhat to that end, but also as a comparison to other Bethesda titles, I would like to see a return to death of "important characters" being possible. Personally I think everyone being killable, but a warning popping up for important characters, to be the best solution, which is what Morrowind did.

Of course, on the PC you can ressurrect an NPC if they die in a glitch, and on console you can't.

But unfortunately, this game is marketed to teenagers in which all they want to do is grab a combat shotgun and kill every NPC in sight and be done with the game. I can't blame them but sooner or later, they will realize the consequences of their idiocy and this game sales will plummet. In other words, the people who are RPG 'noobs' and buy this game will [censored] about it.

[ashleigh bryden]

Things I want to see in new vegas:

about vats:
1. more vats animations
2. more thing to do in vats (like you can cancel vats when you want to, or move in vats)
3. more turn based vats (you make attack (not your all vats attack in a row) in vats and then enemy makes his/hers/its attack)
4. make it less like a godmode

about RT combat:
1. fix the crappy melee (I would prefer something like in dark messiah)
2. aiming throught ironfight with ranged weapons
3. you can make short speed boosts
4. slow motion jet woul be cool

about quests:
1. more sidequests (also guests that are linkid together like moira's survival guide)
2. because it's nevada obsidian must make mad max quests with drivable car and bikes (or ridable bramin)
3. plz no hippy main questline
4. more sidequests

about world:
1. world should be less dense than in FO3 (not too much animal spawn point because it's anoying to stop every 10 seconds to beat up some molerats)
2. more movie like scenes (gob hitting radio or prime lifted with crane and hitting to a wall)
3. more diffirent creatures
4. more weapons (game with shotguns and zombies must have pump-action shotgats, MUST!!!!!)
5. balanced weapons (whats the point to pick up chinese pistol when 10mm pistol is better and you get it from the start?)
6. plz add that you can see your own body in first person

LOLLOLOLOL
turn based vats????
LOL
That would be like adding dueling to Fallout 3 and I would throw up.

[Deon Knight]

O_O

Dueling would be so cool.

And did you actually "Laugh out Loud" or did you just feel like writing alot of LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLs?

[Justin]

LOLLOLOLOL
a turn based VATS is a great idea!
LOL

We might end up with a VATS that would provide a decent gameplay alternative rather than a cheating tool with special effects



On a different matter, I was also wondering whether Obsidian has any intention (and... ability) to bring the humor of the first games back.
Even if it's mostly limited in the interface (as in FO2)
I really missed the monty python moments playing FO3...

[saxon]

LOLLOLOLOL
a turn based VATS is a great idea!
LOL

We might end up with a VATS that would provide a decent gameplay alternative rather than a cheating tool with special effects



On a different matter, I was also wondering whether Obsidian has any intention (and... ability) to bring the humor of the first games back.
Even if it's mostly limited in the interface (as in FO2)
I really missed the monty python moments playing FO3...

I would personally like vats taken out all together and the combat made less shaky. Vats makes you invincible.

[April]

I would like to see a complete overhaul of VATS. Make it more like the originals style. Yous jump to an over the head 3rd and everyone used action points for moving shooting and inventory. With stances like in Tactics, and a better combat AI and cover system. IE where when your gun barrel is sticking over a obsticale when you shoot from VATS it DOESN:T put all your shots into the cover your using! Then when you end combat or win/loos it would go back to real time. Ofcourse you have the option of going only realtime and swapping when ever you wish.

[Victoria Vasileva]

I would like to see a complete overhaul of VATS. Make it more like the originals style. Yous jump to an over the head 3rd and everyone used action points for moving shooting and inventory. With stances like in Tactics, and a better combat AI and cover system. IE where when your gun barrel is sticking over a obsticale when you shoot from VATS it DOESN:T put all your shots into the cover your using! Then when you end combat or win/loos it would go back to real time. Ofcourse you have the option of going only realtime and swapping when ever you wish.

I could accept that as a compromise, even better if combat gave more XP for VATS kills.

[Jessica Nash]

fallout is not chess, better to have it pwn pwn pwn dead in 3 seconds than pwn boom pwn boom pwn boom pwn boom in 1 minute and probably loosing big amount of health and medicaments

on topic: please remove caps and add chips instead of it, also some card games and slot machines will be good, its Las Vegas afterall =P oh and presidential hotel room for the Little Wanderer or w/e hes gonna be called in NV