[Chelsea Head]

Story does not equal cutscenes. A good story inside a game has story to be found left an right without actually breaking gameplay, integrated in gameplay and/or taken little away from gameplay.
But what you are comparing is just length of gameplay vs length of exposition.

I had hoped the ending bit of my post would give pause...

Story is time spent ~whether watching the cutcenes in "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmPqnKvbiiQ&feature=related" or reading veritable chapters in Planescape. (Both the best part of these respective games).


*link to all A&D clips: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8uNzVji_7c&feature=PlayList&p=21C6EA6D1BAA8F20&index=0&playnext=1

[Eve Booker]

The wiki mentioned that Beth was going to announce something about an external project soon, what are the odds of it being Vegas?

[Makenna Nomad]

Story is time spent

Conceded, storytelling elements do take time.
Though I doubt they would actually take time a way unless the designer explicitly designed it so. Usually game designers don't cut loads of gameplay to make room for storytelling moments.

Though I think you and I are not discussing the same point. Looking at your recent reactions I'd say you were talking about the length of the storytelling elements.

[Sammygirl500]

Frankly, I'm finding this story vs gameplay thing a little bit confusing. Sure, there's more than enough examples of games where it's an either/or proposition. But precedent doesn't equal potential.

I think a (possible) misconception might be that you can only have "story" by halting the gameplay. I don't see as how that's an inherent property of videogames. Sure, if you look at Metal Gear Solid, nothing ever happens in the story without some very lengthy expositional cut-scenes. Very little actually happens in Fallout 3 without going to a dialogue tree. A couple of points, though:

• When we're talking about an RPG; isn't progressing the story through dialogue trees a part of gameplay? For a lot of players, the dialogue you have with the NPCs can actually be one of the most enjoyable elements of an RPG's gameplay.
  
• Or maybe I missed something, and suddenly only combat is considered gameplay these days?

Maybe we need to actually define what we're talking about when we're talking about "story." Anything that happens on-screen is plot. Because a plot is nothing more than overcoming an obstacle. If you're fighting Radroach #234, then the plot of the game at that point is exactly that. When you're fighting something, you're telling the story of how you fought that enemy (and either overcame it or died.) Ditto with exploration. The obstacle is the intervening space between you and the goal. Therefore, the story is then about that time you walked to that place.

Neither examples necessarily makes a "good" story. But it's story nonetheless. This is a common misconception when people are talking about movies, for example. Some might come away from a movie saying "it had no plot." But unless we're talking about some really experimental indie film, that's likely not the case. All movies have a plot, unless it's about watching a guy sit in a chair for two hours. You might not like the plot, but so long as the movie is about someone who wants to do something - it has a plot. Same thing goes for videogames (and RPGs specifically.) Any time your character is doing something, that's the story of your character doing that. I don't see as it needs to be narrowly defined as reading a book, watching a cut-scene, or talking to an NPC.

I mean look at Portal, for example. I thought that had a very interesting (and often quite humorous) story. And it's almost 100% gameplay, with very few exceptions.

[Alexis Estrada]

[*]When we're talking about an RPG; isn't progressing the story through dialogue trees a part of gameplay? For a lot of players, the dialogue you have with the NPCs can actually be one of the most enjoyable elements of an RPG's gameplay.

I consider the Fallout dialog trees a kind of minigame, and part of the gameplay yes ~but I don't think highly of the way it was done in Oblivion, where its just a list of monologues to endure in sequence. (maybe that's a bit unfair... I'll admit that I can really only recall the tutorial, where you basically just click the next topic in Septim's list, until you've clicked them all). I'll know better in a week, as I'm starting a replaying of Oblivion along side of a first play through the Witcher.

BTW... Portal is my #1 favorite Valve game.

[Stephanie Kemp]

The wiki mentioned that Beth was going to announce something about an external project soon, what are the odds of it being Vegas?

I thought it has already been announced (hence, this thread existing)

Where do you guys place extra details such as the myriad of books in Morrowind and the codex in Mass Effect, two of my favorite parts of those games, into this story vs. gameplay conversation? They fill in a lot of detail...similar to the level of detail found in novels (kinda)

@rebet: that review is really good and relevant to the current conversation as well...it would be nice for websites like IGN to add a story element to their reviews (where applicable)

[Laura Wilson]

I thought it has already been announced (hence, this thread existing)

I was referring to http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Ausir/Bethesda_announces_an_announcement_within_a_month

[Rachel Hall]

Bits of text are often amongst story, but I love those things. Stories in game-stories in general are quite good. Max Payne(2)'s tv-shows, Deus Ex' notes.
It's one of the great additions in Fallout 3.

[Jessica Thomson]

Where do you guys place extra details such as the myriad of books in Morrowind and the codex in Mass Effect, two of my favorite parts of those games, into this story vs. gameplay conversation? They fill in a lot of detail...similar to the level of detail found in novels (kinda)

For myself, if I were apply videogame stories to the same standards as literature or film; then the background info found in terminals, codexes, etc would into the category of exposition. In that it supplements the story, but doesn't progress the plot forward. (Kind of like how Tarantino always inserts those esoteric conversations into his films - they flesh out the characters, and add interest. But they're exposition; which isn't always a bad thing, but a potential pitfall for a lot of novice writers.)

As far as the whole gameplay vs story thing, I think those actually fit into their own category. It adds to the whole "immersion" factor, and fleshes out the world you're inhabiting, but doesn't directly correlate to either the story or the gameplay. (Though off-hand, I think possibly some games have been able to tie it into gameplay in interesting ways - like in the 3D Metroid games, where you can scan things with your visor to find extra background information; or any game where collecting that info is tied into the gameplay portion.)

If you want to get technical, anything that moves the plot towards it's conclusion is story. Anything that supplements that plot, or adds background information, but doesn't actually push it forwards, is exposition.

[Johnny]

I thought it has already been announced (hence, this thread existing)

Yes, but they might announce some details about the game.

[clelia vega]

Yes, but they might announce some details about the game.

That would be nice, because I'm starting to lose interest entirely.

[Daramis McGee]

For myself, if I were apply videogame stories to the same standards as literature or film; then the background info found in terminals, codexes, etc would into the category of exposition. In that it supplements the story, but doesn't progress the plot forward. (Kind of like how Tarantino always inserts those esoteric conversations into his films - they flesh out the characters, and add interest. But they're exposition; which isn't always a bad thing, but a potential pitfall for a lot of novice writers.)

As far as the whole gameplay vs story thing, I think those actually fit into their own category. It adds to the whole "immersion" factor, and fleshes out the world you're inhabiting, but doesn't directly correlate to either the story or the gameplay. (Though off-hand, I think possibly some games have been able to tie it into gameplay in interesting ways - like in the 3D Metroid games, where you can scan things with your visor to find extra background information; or any game where collecting that info is tied into the gameplay portion.)

If you want to get technical, anything that moves the plot towards it's conclusion is story. Anything that supplements that plot, or adds background information, but doesn't actually push it forwards, is exposition.

I can certainly understand your pov nu_clear_day and I definately agree that supplements are separate from gameplay and or story, at least in story as relates to the one being told by the central theme of the game.

However I find that such supplements are what build the lore which surrounds the world and characters within the game as well as being capable of enhancing the main story, or any substories, and characters also. Such supplements can be and many are used in a way which somehow ties in with the main story or some aspect of it. I think it is extremely important to have these supplements as much as possible, especially in an RPG which of all video games genres manages to build the most detailed, story rich and complex game worlds, historical timelines and characters. While lore is exposition as you describe and the information doesn't necessarily progress directly the narrative of the PC's journey, I think it serves to enrich the story more and therefore is somehow connected to it or a part of it to an extent and therefore quite important to the story of a game.

On the story vs gameplay aspect, it grieves me that the majority of games either choose to focus on one above the other; I feel that the goal should be to achive a perfect balance within the two in order to provide the best possible gaming experience, at least for players such as myself who value the narrative as importantly as the gameplay mechanic itself.

I would hope that New Vegas manages to find a happy medium between these two traits which universally seem to go at odds against each other when a game is being designed. I also hope New Vegas has slightly less repetitious quests which involve coming into a new town and killing/aiding the local crime lord or sheriff, the ally with/destroy the local raider gang of this area and other quests which seemed to be recycled often in the previous 3 games.

[Esther Fernandez]

...

No, absolutely I agree. Exposition isn't supposed to be a dirty word. Like in Pulp Fiction, Samuel L. Jackson and John Travolta talking about big macs doesn't serve to push the plot forward, but it makes it a more engrossing movie nonetheless. It plays an important role in film and literature, and especially in videogames where you have much looser time constraints, can play a very important role. Like I said, it's it's own category; if you want to get technical (and I usually do....)

All the background info you come across in Fallout 3 serves to make a better game. Especially in an RPG, it's something I like to see. (Heck, I thought one of the best things about the Elder Scroll series was collecting book series and historical treatises.) It's probably also worth mentioning that in videogames, exposition is largely optional; something that can be done at the player's leisure, as a break to the regular gameplay elements.

[x_JeNnY_x]

Like in Pulp Fiction, Samuel L. Jackson and John Travolta talking about big macs doesn't serve to push the plot forward,

Such 'tricks' are of course, not to be underestimated. It doesn't push the plot forward - in terms of events happening - but it does serve to put these events into context.
In this particular case it shows two people having a casual conversation about something completely trivial on their way to brutally murder a group of people.
It shows what kind of characters they are.
RPG games always revolve around a particular character - or a group of characters.
So even if events are secondary (old dungeon crawlers have no plot) in RPGs, such little tricks are crucial.

[Johanna Van Drunick]

Tehehe, I've just been reading JE Sawyer's twitter and one of his posts mentions he was laughing pretty hard at some of the New Vegas dialogue.

[Susan Elizabeth]

I really hope that the Bishop Family makes an appearance? That would be cool, and would add to what is going on with them, since..... well a while.

[Andrew]

Such 'tricks' are of course, not to be underestimated. It doesn't push the plot forward - in terms of events happening - but it does serve to put these events into context.
In this particular case it shows two people having a casual conversation about something completely trivial on their way to brutally murder a group of people.
It shows what kind of characters they are.
RPG games always revolve around a particular character - or a group of characters.
So even if events are secondary (old dungeon crawlers have no plot) in RPGs, such little tricks are crucial.

I wouldn't call them tricks, necessarily. Frankly, in a videogame I think expositional elements serve an interesting role that you don't see in other media. Namely, it gives the player more control over the pacing of the game. Considering that these are generally optional, it allows the player to take a break from the rest of the gameplay, or modify the tension in the game. While still technically "playing" the game (and that's usually a good thing in game design...)

Like in GTA, for example - I'm never going to "have" to hang out and watch television. But if I've been stuck on a particular mission, and just need to relax a bit, it helps to break up the tension a bit and keep things from getting repetitive. All while serving the role of pulling the player further into the game fiction. Or the little conversations that go on while I'm driving an NPC to a mission segment - it's really just there to keep the player from getting too bored; but it helps transform what would otherwise be just another drive to a map point into something a lot more interesting. And all without necessitating yet another cut-scene.

In The Elder Scrolls, I'd obsessively collect as many book collections as I could. I wouldn't read every single one as soon as I picked them up, but a lot of times when I'd get back from a dungeon run it'd be a nice break to hang out and read a couple and dig further into the game's lore before I decided to head back again. It's all up to the player how much and when they want to explore this sort of thing. Even in Fallout 3, I wouldn't always read every single terminal I came across, but they'd usually download into my Pip-Boy so I could go back and check them out later. Because sometimes you want to just keeping playing the game, and other times you just want to hang out in the game for a little bit; or just need to take a break from the action a little bit.

I think that's a really important element in a game. Because you can't use the same tricks for breaking the tension, comedic relief, etc, that you can in other media. When the tension gets too high, or starts to become repetitive; the player will decide when to take a break. Without some potential expositional elements, or background info - they're going to turn off the game. And that always means they might put some other game in the drive the next time.

[Spencey!]

In The Elder Scrolls, I'd obsessively collect as many book collections as I could. I wouldn't read every single one as soon as I picked them up, but a lot of times when I'd get back from a dungeon run it'd be a nice break to hang out and read a couple and dig further into the game's lore before I decided to head back again. It's all up to the player how much and when they want to explore this sort of thing. Even in Fallout 3, I wouldn't always read every single terminal I came across, but they'd usually download into my Pip-Boy so I could go back and check them out later. Because sometimes you want to just keeping playing the game, and other times you just want to hang out in the game for a little bit; or just need to take a break from the action a little bit.

Imagine my dismay when it turned out FO3's skill books were impossible to actually read through.

TES books were great because it was realistic & plausible how one would learn something from reading the content of a skillbook - similar to the Gothic series, in fact, where new knowledge is imparted through speech instead of books.

But at least FO3 had some terminals with information about the war & personal diaries lying around, which was a nice touch.

[Ross Thomas]

I
In The Elder Scrolls, I'd obsessively collect as many book collections as I could. I wouldn't read every single one as soon as I picked them up, but a lot of times when I'd get back from a dungeon run it'd be a nice break to hang out and read a couple and dig further into the game's lore before I decided to head back again. It's all up to the player how much and when they want to explore this sort of thing. Even in Fallout 3, I wouldn't always read every single terminal I came across, but they'd usually download into my Pip-Boy so I could go back and check them out later. Because sometimes you want to just keeping playing the game, and other times you just want to hang out in the game for a little bit; or just need to take a break from the action a little bit.

I did that too.

[Trish]

is it me or is the wait for Fallout: New Vegas really dragging out.
It's supposed to come out sometime next year, probably May, and we still haven't gotten any: interviews, Pics, Vids, hints or teasers. If MW:2 wasn't coming out I probably would have Put my self in the Freezer and told someone to thaw me out when Vegas was out.

[NAtIVe GOddess]

is it me or is the wait for Fallout: New Vegas really dragging out.
It's supposed to come out sometime next year, probably May, and we still haven't gotten any: interviews, Pics, Vids, hints or teasers. If MW:2 wasn't coming out I probably would have Put my self in the Freezer and told someone to thaw me out when Vegas was out.

Next year? Remember, Obsidian is making this game. We will be lucky if we see it by the 2011 holidays.

Maybe I'm just being a skeptic, but Obsidian seems like a company who has a hard time finishing a game. Their new game, Alpha Protocol, (which I was really looking forward to) just got pushed back AGAIN. The new date is over a year away from what their original release date was, and who knows if it will even be released then. I was also looking forward to the Aliens RPG, which got canceled.

I hate to jump the gun. However my only other experience with them was with KOTOR II. We all know that they never really finished that game. Never played NWN2, it may have turned out great.

[Kelly John]

Next year? Remember, Obsidian is making this game. We will be lucky if we see it by the 2011 holidays.

Maybe I'm just being a skeptic, but Obsidian seems like a company who has a hard time finishing a game. Their new game, Alpha Protocol, (which I was really looking forward to) just got pushed back AGAIN. The new date is over a year away from what their original release date was, and who knows if it will even be released then.

As I alluded to earlier in this thread, it seems they've had a lot of issues with Sega...from my understanding, the game is essentially done, but Sega has decided to delay the release and hasn't issued an official statement that I know of (even though they finally updated their website)

Anyways...my point is that a lot of Troika/Obsidian's issues with unfinished/delayed games hasn't exactly been all their fault, and I think their relationship with Bethesda will turn out to be quite fruitful.

And LauraJay mentioned a twitter post from J.E. Sawyer earlier...

[Nathan Maughan]

Well hopefully Obsidian is doing better with this game than Alpha Protocol which just got shafted towards June of 2010. While I have a much larger tendency to view this as Sega's doing, like they've done to several games recently, it worries me how this may affect the development of New Vegas.

Also judging from their earlier games, particularly the mess that is KotOR 2, I'm beginning to wonder if Obsidian is simply incapable of making a game they sign on to develop within the timeframe they agree to make it. While Bethesda is pulishing NV and I most certainly want to put all balme on Sega for Obsidian's more recent troubles like I've done with the cancellation of the Alien RPG (Also from Obsidian) and the shaft given to Aliens: Colonial Marines for the upteenth time, the fact that so many game productions belonging to Obsidian turn out shaky makes me wonder a bit in their abilities in spite of their previous reputation in Black Isle. :shrug:

Oh well, I still hope things turn out alright for New Vegas...

[Juanita Hernandez]

Blaming publishers works only so many times. Once, twice, okay, but thrice would be a bit too much, especially with such a competent publisher as Bethesda.

But at least Obsidian can always return to picking up BioWare's left-over franchises if even NV is botched too.

[Mario Alcantar]

Sawyer was dropping hints about NV on twitter way before it was announced (saying stuff like 'I'm reading a lot about Vegas these days' etc). Some of the devs also seem to be playing it already, again going by his twitter. There are also hints at what there might be in the game; I believe a desert filled with broken satellites was one of them.

I would have expected at least a teaser trailer by now. Fallout 3 had one over a year before it's release, it's almost winter and we still have nothing. Just some very vague interviews. I don't know if this is worrying (I'm not up to date on either company's history) or I'm just an impatient sod. I really hope this does come out next year though, and is a game that's true to the originals. I loved the humor and atmosphere so much and Vegas to me, is a perfect fit for that whole desperate crumbling society thing much like Reno was. No law, no order...people relying heavily on drugs and trading and all the seedy stuff that goes on there with crime lords and the like. I don't know exactly how the story will go but I'd at least expect some of these elements to be present.

Also, arnet they using the GECK/Gamebryo engine? So it's not like they have to build an engine from scratch to make this game, I thought Beth supplied them with the tools...