Are you kidding? The DAoC endgame stuff was quite a bit.

For pve in daoc each side had an end game dragon, there was a end game raid dungeon for each side with shrouded isles, trials of atlantis was pretty much almost a whole expansion built around end game raiding(I didn't hate it nearly as bad as some). I think its main unpopularity was that most people just wanted to pvp and only pve little but to get to the top of your game in pvp you pretty much had to have the items that came out with the expansion and the ml abilities from it, and all the items took more time to level them up to full power. Had they not had the ml abilities tied to the pve of it and the top items been closer in strength to say shrouded isles raid dungeon items without needing to level them up people wouldn't of rejected that expansion so much. Anyways expansions after that also added more end game pve after that so it did have it, it just wasn't as popular most people did pvp the vast majority of the time.

I find you a very confusing human being Qallidex...one minute thoughtful and articulate and the next...an insulting one-line throwing barbarian. This is one of your thoughtful posts, and as tends to be the case with those, you have a good point. But I find I agree more with Elth.

Cyrodiil will not be a true sandbox...or at least it doesn't seem it will be. Elth looked at objectives (taking keeps). One could also look at the crown. When does the claiming of the crown happen in the life cycle of the game/story? Does the war end with the crowning of theOne-who-has-no-life-outside-their-parents-basemant-and-who-has-been-playing-for-18-hours-per-day-since-release, or does it continue? If it continues, how - are Emperors capable of perma-death? Or does the current Emperor just politely step down when the tides of the endless war turn against their ascendancy? If the conflict continues won't that undercut the sense of meaningfulness of the crowning event? If some of the posters on this forum are correct in their estimation, crowning an Emperor just becomes a competition for a crown-related-buff. A gimmicky game mechanic that becomes more transparent the more it is repeated. This becomes still more clear with the almost certain addition of objectives like taking key keeps etc. Cyrodiil will just be a very large BG. Nothing wrong with that. I feel sure I'll enjoy it for what it is....right up to the very first crowning.

As a side note:
You asked me in another thread how I have a problem with this game if I enjoy PVP. The problem is that I'm an avid reader and a driven writer, and what matters to me more than anything in entertainment is good storytelling (something TES has always done well). When an MMO focuses itself around the race-based-faction-war schtick, the story eventually loses its punch, or just completely stops making sense. Sooner, rather than later, it just becomes a grind. I would prefer that story-based PVP was not a repetitive thing but an emergent aspect of (at least partially) player-driven content (SO MUCH). It is one of the things I had hoped for actually. As I've said in other posts, this game world is rich in such possibilities. (Noble houses, mercenaries, spies, morag tong, dark brotherhood, vampires/hunters, theriomorphs/hunters, witches/cultists/hunters, bandits etc)....But if thats not to be the case, then I would greatly prefer that the kind of PVP we're getting be nakedly what it is: an e-sport (arenas, bgs etc) that has little to no impact on the unfolding story, and that is not the golden measure by which alllllll other aspects of the game must be "balanced".

Agreed.

The best part is, after reading OP. My initial thought was "[censored], so, the whole leveling process is pretty much a badly made TES RPG with multiplayer feature, if you so wish to, and once you grind to max level, you get to the thing TES MMO should be about, and even that is static?"

Quite right Glargg...

The concept has been around for a while: it's actually called a "Theme-Box" and several MMOs have attempted to adopt its properties, rarely in any successful form. I think the closest one I can cite is SWG toward the end of its reign.

The trick however, to making a successful theme-box is to not compromise either one. You can have a robust and amazing set of story and lore-driven quest-lines that take you all over the world in PvE and PvP contexts, with a structured end-game, all while having a malleable, player-driven world from the economy and housing, to the factions, to the wars, etc. It just takes a lot of time, money and manpower because you're essentially creating both games in one that must seamlessly fit together. You are not creating a hybrid of the two, because then both are diminished.

Also, you guys touched on the concept of the sandbox versus the beach. One of my very early mentors said to me "you can give them a sandbox, but don't give them the beach." An example of a game that is a "beach" is something like Wurm Online (Notch's first big game before he made Minecraft) where the sheer size of the world and freedom to explore and interact with it, actually works against player's desire to explore and interact with it (the psychological precept of "choice overload").

I do not agree that ESO is a theme-box because it is too compromised. Even the PvP end-game element does not fully make up for it. It would have to go a lot further into sandbox territory to reach theme-box level. But this is a rare gem of a well-reasoned post from Qallidex.


Until this thread popped up I was convinced that Qallidex was a troll actually and rarely if ever responded to his posts. With the amount of flaming, insults, one-liners and blatant self-contradicting you do Qallidex it was hard not to come to that conclusion. Maybe two people use the same account, or you are often drunk? Whatever the reason it's good to see a real thought come out of your head. We may be on the opposite side of a rather heated debate, but I'm glad to see you put in more than 2 cents worth here, even if I disagree.


Can you please give a source for this because I would like to understand the context?

Here's why. Basic MMO design 101: No matter how big your game is, no matter how many features you have, it is still one game, not a collection of mini-games. It must be one, large cohesive experience. Every feature, every element, is a cog in one single machine. This is a big mistake that many designers have made in MMOs in the past. Just giving a lot of people "something to do" doesn't cut it. It must be "something to do within the context of the world that actually feels like it matters, either to the player or to the world as a whole."

Great example of this is a little feature in Fallen Earth: gambling. You can play slot machines, roulette, video poker, video blackjack (all in real-time, in-engine sequences) and what is the point? It is an economic money-sink, but it's also fun and it fits the context of the world.

You can also do this in Darkfall (in a different way) and that is one aspect of Darkfall that feels VERY out of place, and incongruous. I never wanted to play slots in DF because it didn't feel right, but in Fallen Earth, I gamble all the time, sometimes even strike it big!

Not the best example, but one that was on the tip of my tongue.

Hopefully this is not what he meant. When Todd Howard is asked what sets TES apart he never talks about one thing, he always talks about how the parts are put together to make one big cohesive whole, and THAT is what most RPGs lack and why they often fail to be compelling experiences.

It's good to be versatile. I do do a lot of bashing, but it's primarily because of all the senseless bashing that the other faction does on this forum. People saying the graphics are cartooney, the game is a WoW clone, and other completely ridiculous statements that are trying to bring down the one good MMO that's been released since 2001, granted, that pisses me off.

To clarify my point, Cyodiil isn't "pure" sandbox. If it was, you'd have a giant church in one spot, and then 2 hours later you'd come back to the same spot, and it'd be a completely different looking taven, then a couple hours later, there would be a pond there in the same spot... Being able to control the world like a developer isn't an entirely good thing when you have so many people sharing the same world. That being said, Cyrodiil does have plenty of sandbox elements...

First off, I never skewed the definition of sandbox. A sandbox just means a players control/impact on the world. The more control they have, the more sandboxey it is, and the less control they have, the more theme-parkey it is. Building pre-set keeps/castles, farms, etc., and then giving players control over who runs those areas, is a very sandboxey element. And given that that's what the entire province of Cyrodiil is going to be about, it's VERY akin to being one big sandbox. Hopefully players WILL have some control over the keeps/castles as far as construction goes. For example, being able to board up windows in a farm (Nazi Zombies style), or being able to add a tower or an extra gate onto a keep (as long as it takes time and resources, not just place & drop). But, even without those elements, Cyrodiil is still a very big PvP sandbox...


As far as the story goes, stories have one very major problem, ... they end. And in an MMO where you want people to keep playing month after month, you can't really have just one story that has an ending... So? What do you do? The story is in Cyrodiil. It's player-driven, and it's the alliances that form between the Ebonheart Pact and The Daggerfall Covenant, against the Aldmeri Dominion... Then the breaking down of that alliance and the betrayal of the Pact against the Covenant, and the Dominions ensueing Domination over previously Pact dominated lands... It's the alliances that form, and then break apart. The keeps that are taken, and then taken back. The dynasties that form and then fall... That's the ongoing story of Elder Scrolls Online, and THAT's why the 3-faction Open-world RvR Keep-warfare style PvP is so glorious. And as a player, you can't be the "one and only hero", but you get to be a part of that. That's how it was in DAoC, and that's what it'll be like in ESO...

Herein lies the "division" I mentioned earlier, about there being two "factions" on this forum. TES is above all else "story-driven." The lore is deep and (generally) consistent, and events build on history, and contribute to the history that is written next. (The "Elder Scrolls" themselves.) Factions exist for reasons, and the reasons count.

I didn't play DAoC (so forgive any misconceptions I may have about the game); my understanding is that the three factions in that game are largely parallel in nature, each being made up of a variety of "races." This is quite different from the situation in Tamriel, where there are only going to be nine races total, apparently forced into three-race alliances which are not consistent with existing lore. They are "alliances of convenience."

The problem is this: Why, in your view, do these three-race "alliances of convenience" continue to hold together? As you say, "Then the breaking down of that alliance and the betrayal of the Pact against the Covenant, and the Dominions ensueing Domination over previously Pact dominated lands... It's the alliances that form, and then break apart. The keeps that are taken, and then taken back. The dynasties that form and then fall..."

I can see it in the context of DAoC, but how does this work in the context of TES? Let's say for example that the Ebonheart and Daggerfall ally against the Aldmeri; why would the Nords not suddenly decide that they would rather continue to ally with the other humans (Bretons and Redguard) rather than continuing as part of Ebonheart? What holds this together? Does it make sense?

This is my problem. I see the value in the three-way RvR setup, but I also see that in order to make it work, there's some shoe-horn work going on to force the races into boots that really don't fit, and I believe that this is potentially going to alienate TES fans. TES is story and lore, first and foremost. It's about complex and dynamic societies ("factions") interacting, and bringing about change. Where's the change in this endgame, if it's the same three factions slugging it out, endlessly?

Name for me seven games that have actually done this.

Granted, I'll admit that ZOS sort of mold the lore around the game that wanted, rather than start with the lore and build a game around that, but that's a good thing. Like they keep saying, they want a good game first... And as far as the lore goes, they didn't really "change" anything, because there's hardly any lore of the second era to speak of. And everything they did lore-wise, they got the green-light for from Tood Howard and the guys at Bethesda, and if they got the green light from Bethesda, then I'd say it's OK. I'm sure Todd Howard and the people at Bethesda know more about the lore than anyone else here.

And as far as the races being separated, I agree somewhat, but they did cover why that is... The dominion races believing they're superior, and should rule, they wouldn't quickly side with the Ebonheart Pact. And the Daggerfall Covenant having a sort of free-trade alliance, and the Ebonheart Pact's treaty out of necessity. The Dominion and Covenant seem to have fairly "tight-knit" alliances, where the Pact does not. So, it might make sense for the Nords to join the Daggerfall Covenant, or for the Argonians to bend the knee to the Dominion, BUT you can justify it by saying "back then the Nords absolutely hated the Regaurds and Bretons, and the Argonians loathed the Kahjiit more than even the Dunmer". Granted, it's not a perfect explanation, and everyone knows that they're sort of molding the lore around the game, but still, considering the 2nd era is pretty open lore-wise, I think they can make it work just fine.

You guys want to know what TESO will be like? Look at GW2...it's pretty much an exact copy. Random PvE events, similar combat system, WPvP consists of 3 factions going at each other.......TESO would be ground breaking if they has released it already, by next year when it releases it will be old news because GW2 already did it....and would have already implemented a whole year of new content/fixes and tweaks.

.

That's completely off-topic, this thread isn't about whether ESO is ground-breaking or not. No one at ZOS even said it was ground-breaking, and it doesn't have to be. There haven't been any good games in the MMO market since WoW was released, so all they have to do is make a great-game. And you're right, a lot of that stuff is old news because GW2 copied it from DAoC which came out in 2001. Get you're facts straight. The MOB AI however, will be ground-breaking, but the game isn't "all about that".


Edit: Sorry, not all that's copied from DAoC... The random PvE events they took from Rift.

I frankly don't give a damn if ESO is groundbreaking, or if it plays like GW2. For me, I'm just excited to have DAoC-style gameplay in the ES world. It's dark. It's gritty. It's brutal. I can't stand those other MMOs that are extremely fantastical. If I think the world looks too goofy or silly in an MMO, I'm not playing it.

Only three things matter to me in games:

Fun
Working
Balanced

I couldn't care less if TESO rewrote every piece of lore to put it into the 50th Age and we saw Vibroswords and mechanical mounts.
I couldn't care less if TESO played exactly like [insert different MMORPG].

All I care about is if the game is fun, if it works and if it is balanced.

LOL. Hell yea.


For the next Elder Scrolls game, I wanna be a Khajiit that dual-wields light-sabers.

Yes. It definitely needs to be balanced. That is critical for PvP on this scale. I have high trust in the team though because a lot of those people had to work on DAoC and balance 47 unique classes, and they did a very good job IMO. Notice I said unique, not mirrored classes

Hell, hand TES over to the Dungeons & Dragons crowd and let's see them create an RPG out of it >)

Where'd you get the number 7 from?

Xsyon, Wurm, Minecraft, The Repopulation, Mortal Online, Eve Online and Embers of Caerus.

And Ultima Online.


Okay this seems a little bit odd to me. I understand what you're saying in theory, but you just basically told us that you're not a TES fan. So then, if you're here that must mean something drew you here, or do you spend this kind of time on the forums of every upcoming MMORPG?

Based on your join date I have to assume you came here regarding something about Skyrim, maybe related to what's in your signature? Granted this is my fourth or fifth account on these forums so join dates are never 100% reliable.

You're basically saying this could be any universe, time-period, conceit, franchise and you'd be all over it if it met those three requirements. Would you mind maybe telling us some other MMOs that you feel have met those requirements? From my point of view almost no MMORPGs are balanced properly and very few are actually "fun," but that's a taste thing. Incidentally, playing World of Warcraft, quite literally makes me tired. I will get tired, stop playing to go to sleep and then INSTANTLY wake up again once I've closed the game. Granted I haven't played in a long time.

Back to my point though, I guess I'm having a hard time getting what you're excited about, or anticipating in TESO if it isn't playing in the world of TES, to the point where you'd be on here debating with people about it, defending Zenimax's right to screw with a much-beloved franchise all they want? Is it the 3-faction RvR? There have been a fair number of DAOC people coming here simply because of that. You don't have to explain anything of course, but this confused me is all.

Highly doubt any of these (with the exception of Minecraft which can't really be compared to a High Fantasy MMO) have the level of "sandboxeyness" that Elth was talking about.



His 3 biggest priorities in an MMO are Fun, Working, and Balanced. OBVIOUSLY he's not a TES fan. Huh? What? DId I really just say that?
And you're one to talk about spending time on forums. I've never seen anyone spend as much time as you do on a forum just to troll around and bash a game you have no intention whatsoever of playing. Lame.

People being insulted that some critics weren't all that impressed by the rather lacking E3 coverage,
feeling the need to defend their soon-to-be favorite game from "trolls" and "haters" who obviously know next to nothing about basic MMORPG conventions.
We're quick to make assumptions about users whose opinions are different from our own, but god forbid we do the same to the second coming of Christ TESO.

You're just trying to justify a way to waste as much time as you do bashing a game you don't have any intention of playing. But hey, whatever helps you sleep at night bro. Maybe a hobby would help, but who am I to judge? I only have common sense.

You're on an internet forum arguing about video games. People with common sense tend to stay away from both.

See, this is what I'm talking about. How do my expressing myself negatively mean I'm not going to play the game? How do either of us know I won't end up liking it?

Just can your insults and baseless accusations, plant, and quit being mad at people you are disagreeing with.
Or you could simply just ignore them, starting now. Go!

Let's get this straight. Don't place words into people's mouths. I think most of the DAoC fans that have came here might also be TES fans. Don't be so inclusive in your generalizations. --> That seems to be a problem with you bashing trolls.

I think you just unintentionally insulted yourself there.....

No, I really should know better by now

They are all online games that allow players to build and destroy. EVE Online in particular is especially unique - pretty much every single item in the game (even down to the ammo you fire) is created by the players. The materials needed to create those items are mined or produced by the players. The transportation required to deliver a sold item to a buyer is often carried out by players. The entire economy is player-operated, and some of them have recently challenged themselves by trying to destroy that economy - something the developers actively encourage: http://www.shacknews.com/article/73551/ccp-gives-blessing-to-eve-online-economy-attack So yes, all of those games are true sandboxes. EVE Online is so much a Sandbox that studies are often carried out to see what sort of crimes people carry out in an environment without rules. The bank heist in EVE Online is one of the most famous examples.


Please don't revert back to your trolling. Your OP has sparked a really interesting discussion, so let's keep it civil. Darkside Eric flat out admitted he doesn't care about TES lore, and would be happy to see it set in the future with Star Wars-like technology. Clearly he isn't much of a TES fan, so Reymas was simply asking what he's so interested in TESO for. If it's not the world and lore that he's excited to see, what makes the mechanics and gameplay of TESO stand out above any other MMO already on the market or releasing soon? It's a fair question.

As for the main topic - I agree with you that it's a mix of the two, but it's certainly leaning a lot closer towards theme park. If we could war for any province, expanding our faction's area of influence and gaining rewards for doing so, that would be pretty awesome. The Thalmor in the fourth era didn't make a beeline for Cyrodiil - they went for Valenwood and Elsweyr first, then Hammerfell and Cyrodiil. Now that Cyrodiil has been retaken the brunt of the war is occuring in Hammerfell. It seems odd that every faction would be fighting for one single province and ignoring the other provinces on their borders that are held by their enemies. There's a good argument to keep it this way for gameplay balance of course, but that's what holds the game back from being a Sandbox. The more rules and limitations you add, the more Themepark it becomes. Doesn't mean it won't be fun, but it does mean it isn't really a Sandbox.