Thomas Kaira - Thank you for all of your information. I'm reading the page on the CK Wiki about savegames now.

As you say, there is unfortunately precious little I can do to prevent things like this from occuring. And when faced with the choice between 1) leave things as-is because I might break someone's savegame, or 2) make things better, do things more efficiently, and fix bugs, #2 will always win.

I have done some steps to prevent this from occuring with GlobalVariables when an update is received. I had an "Oh, sh$!" moment a few days ago, when I almost pushed a simple update without testing it, but at the last second decided, "Better take a look anyway". Loaded a game saved with a previous version of my mod, and to my horror, my character keeled over and died instantly. Boy, that would have been a PR nightmare.

What went wrong? I was performing the check, "if Exposure Points == 0, kill the player." Guess what? Orphaned GlobalVariables in a savegame, when not used, seem to initialize to zero or 0.0. I had an orphaned GlobalVar that was instantly killing the player! This was on top of my EP still reporting 100/100. I prevented it by saying instead, "If Exposure Points < 0, kill the player." The truth is that, based on the math, Exposure Points would almost never equal exactly zero, so it worked out. It seems like if the game is performing that kind of a condition check, "If 0, if 1, if whatever", it will look for every matching GlobalVariable, and if -any of them- match the condition, it will return true. This is unbelievably stupid, because they made this an implicit OR.

In other global variables, I have started using 1 and 2 instead of 0 and 1, to ensure that globals initializing to null/FALSE/zero won't have an affect on my logic.

But yes, this is a script-centric mod, and it's not done. I will note, in bold font on the OP, to back up your savegames. I'm hoping however that v1.4 will "un-stick" many people's games, as it relates to being able to Fast Travel, which is not controlled by an errant script or global, but purely a function call to Game.EnableFastTravel(True).

Also, Thomas, if you don't mind, could you try something for me if v1.4 doesn't fix your issue? Can you open the console, and type, "set _DE_ExposurePoints to 75", get near a fire, and see if you start warming up? If you do, then things should be working normally for you. Let me know.

You're welcome!

This depends a lot on the state of the game when your game is saved whether or not you may see an issue. It is very hit-and-miss and person A might see an issue whereas person B, C, D, E, and F might not. That being said, my new configuration options should hopefully help with some of this. I, personally, have not seen stuck values when using savegames of my own during testing.


There sort-of already is, since Vampires get a natural 25% Frost Resistance bonus, which gets factored in. I will look at doing some other neat things for Vamps in v1.5.


Glad to hear it! I'll have to check it out myself and see if I can "fully endorse" it.

I am working on v1.5 planning. My primary goals are 1) better temperature detection based on location (the Pale, High Hrothgar being detected erroneously as "warm") and 2) adding a "hardcoe Mode", which would give you a few more knobs to turn such as turning off Fast Travel entirely, making it longer to warm up near fires, etc. What would you like to see in a hardcoe Mode?

I have updated the OP with a Troubleshooting section. Please consult this if you run into problems. If they don't work, let me know, and when we fix the problem I'll post the new solution so that everyone can use it.

I posted this on the Steam Workshop forums, but I will cross-post it here since it has to do with the future of hardcoe Mode.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjHiOQcYP6DudFgxZnhuMXpJR0RKNmIzZnEwRHJ0TEE#gid=0

Can you please make the varying thermal protection values optional. I completely agree with your objections. I mean, why load a hypothermia mod if you just want to get gear that helps you circumvent the mod? ...grinders gotta grind I guess.

Not that I care about this new feature, but I think for the "varying thermal protection of clothing/armor" to have any non-arbitrary meaning there should be a balance between thermal protection and battle protection. Otherwise, it just obviates the mod and reverts to vanilla status in arbitrary gear with no new gameplay value added.

I agree. But even then, if you establish a direct inverse relationship it still doesn't make any sense. See: Daedric vs. Iron Armor in terms of body coverage. I don't know what I'm going to do because there's almost no way to make it make sense, and provide some new gameplay choice at the same time.

I can test more of Total Realism if you wish, but I canned it for now. I do not know what part of the water you both changed in CK, but I do know they don't break each other's functions. Water in Frostfall still has specific temperatures and are still drinkable/storable in TO. I do not know if foods such as Apple Cabbage soup can be created or not since Apples have changed to Stale Apples, but I guess that's really TO's ordeal since all bread, fruits and cheese are stale for some reason (but raw meat in a dungeon is good enough to cook). The author of TO hasn't mentioned compatibility with anything that changes cooking, but he has stated he plans to make patches with popular recipe mods (which hopefully he doesn't exclude Frostfall as it's much more than that). The two mods are compatible, but not fully; not to the point where they play off of each other quite well, which Imps mod does.

{edit} As for 1.5, hardcoe mode sounds good. I do think standing near the fire for the amount it takes to warm up is already good, but should probably be dramatically longer if you've been soaking wet in the coldest waters.

Keep up the awesome work.

I think rather than by quality, you could have thermal protection by armor type, and it could also be realistic:

Heavy Armor: High Physical Protection, Low Thermal Protection
Realism: Metal Conducts Heat away too well (glass armor being an exception)

Light Armor: Medium Physical Protection, Medium Thermal Protection
Realism: Stiff Armor Doesn't trap air very well (fur being an exception)

Clothing: Low Physical Protection, High Thermal Protection
Realism: layers of woven fibers and insulation trap air keeping you warmer (exception [censored]ty skin wear)

These are just broad categories that provide a basic structure for gameplay depth. You could have lesser variances within these categories based entirely on the arbitrary coverage and fur graphics provided by Bethesda. Tbh, it sounds like it will be a PITA, and you are a saint for doing it - especially when you can easily add Frost Resistance to any type of armor or clothing and wear what you want.

Is that like how southerners say, "Bless your heart", when they really are trying to say, "you poor bastard?"

{edit} Nevermind about the firewood! My mistake! Sorry!


Also I've noticed, probably due to the 1.4 update, that a big campfire and cooking pot fire don't tell me I'm completely warm, unless I've been wet. This is intentional, correct? I swam in a lake outdoors and it didn't mention how cold the water was. I don't think I've changed any settings for this?


Also also, whether you want to or not, just thought I'd mention it. On the description page on Nexus, under Gameplay #3 Campsite items, it still says "You can store up to 12 fire kits, 1 bedroll, and 1 tent in your pack." I'm not sure if you wanted to change the tent/bedroll to be a merged item or not.

Woodcutting Attempt is not me. That must be coming from another mod.

Missing messages: I will check into. Thanks for specifying that you got them while you were wet, that gives me things to go on. Also, I suppress temperature messages for water if one occurred within the last in-game hour I believe, to prevent spam.

I've gotten the basics worked out for catching whether you're climbing up High Hrothgar, and how high, and forcing maximum temperature values. If it pans out I will apply the concept to the rest of areas where you would expect it to be cold all the time, but sometimes it is not.

Aye, I was wondering why I was not receiving any messages about heat so I intentionally went to go for a nice swim. No message about the water (I understand this happens sometimes) but I did check the wet shader and it was enabled. So I went to both sources of heat being the cooking pot and the big campfires after getting wet two different times and that's when both of those heating sources would tell me I dried off and am completely warm.

I'll try other sources of both water and fire soon.

The Weathersense Ring that comes with the Mod isn't appearing in my Inventory, so the solution accodingly to the Mod Creator , is to add it via console command.. Problem is, i type everything correctly, but even with that, i get an error saying unknow command etc etc...
But it is not his fault, any item in-game that i try that, i get this error... what i'm doing wrong ? what am i typing wrong ?

I type in console command exact like this : player.additem 0300B519 1
This ID is the ID of the Ring.

Am i typing right ?

It depends on the load order I believe. You're better off searching for the ring (i.e. type "help weathersense") and copying the ID shown.

Thanks for the update Chesko, will load and continue testing alongside IMCN. Much appreciated

Some updates on what I'm working on for v1.5:

• (complete) Better location and altitude checking. High Hrothgar, Bleak Falls Barrow, mountains in general, and the areas of the Pale should never be "warm" for no reason, and the waters should always be freezing.

• (complete) hardcoe Mode. Some basic differences between armor types and how much they protect you vs. Exposure, ability to disable Wait and Fast Travel entirely, and longer times to warm up while near a fire. For serious Dovahkiins only.
  
  • (If this feature is enabled, Body Armor is broken into 3 tiers of protection: Limited, Standard, and Full. Helms, Gloves, and Boots give a standard amount of protection regardless. Armors in the "Limited" category are:
    
    • Hide
      
    • Shirtless Fur variants
      
    • Studded
      
    • Iron
      
    • Banded Iron
  • Armors in the "Full" category are:
    
    • Fur (4th variant with sleeves)
      
    • Orcish heavy armor
  • All armors not listed above fall into the "Standard" category. Armor from mods will fall into the "Standard" category.
    
  • All of the above may change at any time before release due to performance testing, feedback, or because I feel like it.

• Racial and Beast bonuses (Vampire, Werewolf)

• (complete) Better campsite item behavior. Fires should emit light, snow should cover your tent when sleeping in the snow for a few hours, fires should go out after 6 hours.

• Investigate additional camping mod compatibility.

• Increase heat radius for Fire Kit campfires (to help prevent "wet flapping" while near a fire in the rain).

• Consequences for waiting in the cold.

• (complete) More interplay between Exposure and Freezing Water. Cold, Extremely Cold, and Frigid water will now sap a flat amount of EP, if your EP is above the cap. Example: Extremely Cold water will drop your EP to 60, if your current EP > 60.

• (complete) Make being wet much more dangerous. The old multiplier for being wet was 2; it is now 16. I weigh this against the fact that it is relatively easy to dry off if you want to.

• (complete) Downplay importance of Frost Resistance, increase importance of worn equipment; makes being naked more dangerous.

• Make the Weathersense Ring ping your status while worn, once every 30 seconds.

• (complete) Unique messages when warming up, instead of playing your status messages backwards.

I also need to look into reports that essentially boil down to the fact that the StartQuest that hands you the Camping Supplies and Ring isn't firing for some reason, for some users. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to it. I am currently handing the player these items from a papyrus fragment; I may move this into the main loop and check to make sure that the alias was indeed filled. I get the feeling that quest fragments can be buggy.

To help (I hope!) on the last point, a new character made since upgrading from 1.1 to 1.4 didn't get a ring, while a current character was given one when i first got 1.1
So either it didn't work as a startup script, or it's changed between versions. Do note I'm using Live Another Life which gives me a nonstandard start. It would be nice for this to be compatible with that. You could always put an activator in say Whiterun, or one in every city? Or if EP is tracked from the start, give people the ring/supplies when their EP first drops below 60?

Everything sounds even better, Chesko!




This is the way it should be. I like it.

Thanks for the help evilgiraffe!

I was finally able to reproduce the bug where the Ring and-or Backpack was not added to the player's inventory, and had to do with a bad papyrus fragment. I nuked that quest fragment, and moved that logic into the main loop, in the same place that checks if this is your first boot-up (to display the splash screen), and it seems to work reliably now. So, I think that bug might be squashed.

Glad to hear it! Sounds like you'd guessed that in your previous post, though.

Morning coffee, morning code...

Started working on beast bonuses. Werewolves now get an instant 20EP when they transform, which could be used in an emergency. They also restore an additional 10 EP each time they feed (checking on whether this is technically feasible now). I consult everyone here to tell me whether or not they think this is balanced, since I haven't played a Werewolf before.

For vampires, I consulted this bit of lore:



Vampires will ignore the effects of freezing water and being wet. This not only gives them a significant advantage in the water, but gives them a significant over-land advantage as well, as rain or stepping into a river momentarily won't sap any of their strength. I intend to give Argonians a similar ability, but it won't be as powerful; being a vampire can completely change the way you play the game, so I weigh ignoring freezing water against the (potentially high) cost of being a vampire.

sounds good to me!

Any chance of getting supplies available for sale at vendors, like firekits, etc.?