[Bethany Watkin]

It would be great if you could add a power similar to the Tumo technique from tibetan yoga. This would stop the exposure loss through meditation. Useful as a last resource, you don't get worse but you must remain in a meditation state, i.e. a snow storm appears and there is no shelter around so you decide to meditate until the situation improves. Maybe it is not very lore friendly and already covered by the proposed spells, but maybe it would be a interesting alternative for non-mage characters.

Another silly idea: yesterday I was playing and got lost near the sea of ghosts, my exposure getting lower and lower, with no tent. I realised that I had a shovel and I thought: "I wish I could make an igloo..."

[michael flanigan]

One thing I just want to say that's been worrying me about these "Absorb Heat" spells is to take care in keeping them from being too strong. Maybe humanoids only, and they give a debuff that allows you to only get the effect once per x hours?

I'm imagining bad possibilities of using followers as heat batteries, or running around blasting all the foxes/deer you see in a blizzard. While all this may logically make sense, it's not the sort of gameplay that I think would be stimulating, rewarding, or really even fun. So far, Frostfall has went to good lengths to reward the player for being prepared, or punish the player for being ill prepared and taking needless risks. I'm just not sure how the Absorb Heat spells currently being described fit these criteria. You get that spell, don't run around naked, and frankly, it sounds like it could be GG.

The hostile target thing is a good idea, but followers will happily forgive you after smashing them to bits. Essential/protected targets might even forget you were attacking them once you've beat them. The idea of stretching it out so you're in combat longer I think rewards cheap behavior more than normal behavior. I think you're absolutely right in some of the limitations you've suggested, I just don't think they're strict enough yet.

For an example, in another game, you could cast drain life on enemies. It has many of the same limitations you outlined, but a player can just cast that spell on half a dozen low level enemies, run around, and get the full effect. How can we stop players from doing that to a deer herd? Shouldn't we want to? You mention mana costs... Should we allow mages who stack to 100% magic reduction to be that much better than mages who don't exploit that? The other spells, I think, can be balanced so as to maintain an even playing field. I'm not so sure combat spells, like Absorb Heat, can be.

[Rodney C]

Another silly idea: yesterday I was playing and got lost near the sea of ghosts, my exposure getting lower and lower, with no tent. I realised that I had a shovel and I thought: "I wish I could make an igloo..."

Now THAT idea I really like. Whenever I watch one of those survivalist shows on discovery (bear grylls, dual survival, etc) and the episode is set in a snowy region, they always show the benefits of building a den in the snow

I think if you do decide to go this route Chesko, then it should be balanced in a way that it is definitely a "last resort". Maybe making it have lowest stats, so that you get a feeling of "well this will have to do. At least it'll get me through the night".

Obviously it would require a charitable individual to make you the new mesh. But considering the popularity of this mod, if you request it, they will come

- Hypno

[Steve Smith]

One thing I just want to say that's been worrying me about these "Absorb Heat" spells is to take care in keeping them from being too strong. Maybe humanoids only, and they give a debuff that allows you to only get the effect once per x hours?

Maybe they could simply be subject to the same restrictions that heat sources have? If you use them in a blizzard, you'd get the message "Without shelter to trap the warmth, the heat is faint." So they would really only be helpful in interiors without heat sources and in mild weather.

[Flash]

Could, instead of how it is now, based in combat, could absorb heat be like... A slow casting, dual cast spell you cast on recent corpses? Think like a spell based werewolf feeding, siphoning off the last of the heat from a fresh kill. It doesn't feel very Destruction-y at that point, though. Maybe some warped version of Restoration.

That could help11, mcw, I'm not sure. I feel like I've become increasingly doom and gloom about the absorb heat spell the last couple days. I may be losing my objectivity.

[Stacey Mason]

In general, good spells are one of those things where "you know it when you see it". Some ideas have been "a HA! Brilliant! Let's do it!", while others feel sort of like I'm trying to fit it in there just for the sake of having it. If I start to feel like that, if I'm not on fire about the idea, I most likely won't do it. I currently feel that way (the latter) about basically everything that I and others have come up with in Destruction and Restoration, with the exception of an Evaporation spell.

The thing I said I would never do is "insert X magicka to get Y exposure". So everything since then has been something to the tune of "insert X magicka while doing Y action to get Z exposure", putting something in the middle. I'm starting to think that won't work either. The smell test for a good spell is:

1) Does it complement the current system?
2) Does it solve a unique problem, or provide a solution to an existing problem but in a magical way?
3) Does it fit Frostfall's flavor and aesthetic?
4) Does it sound fun? Would it be fun?
5) Does the cost and requirements equal the benefit?
6) Does it avoid providing a winning strategy? (Any strategy that is far and above superior to other solutions to the problem)

Using that as a guide, you can pretty well determine if something is going to work or not. To give an example, the Skin spells I think complement the system, they solve an existing problem in a magical way (there are no clothing items that provide full protection in WEAR), I don't think it conflicts with Frostfall's aesthetic, it sounds fun, and since the effect is temporary and has to be maintained, I think the cost and requirements equals the benefit. It doesn't provide a winning strategy because you can just wear full protection gear instead of maintaining a spell, but the spell maintenance allows you to wear the mage gear you want.

Absorb Warmth fits the bill for 2 and 4, but perhaps not 1, 3, or 5 and maybe 6. Frostfall has been very combat-agnostic so far, and perhaps it should stay that way. Couple this with the fact that most players probably use the default setting of "no exposure gain during combat" and it becomes an even harder sell because you can only go up in combat; you have nothing to lose and everything to gain. It could result in a winning strategy over campfires, provided there were enough targets in the area (deer, small animals, enough creatures, so on). Absorbing it from freshly slain bodies, outside of combat? That's better but still not quite there. It may never be "there".

But then again you've got Werewolves that can feed to regain exposure, at 10 exposure per kill. So that makes me conflicted about the whole thing. Maybe no one complains about this because playing a Werewolf isn't as popular, and maybe viciously devouring a fresh kill is more "in tune" with the Frostfall aesthetic? I don't know. Perhaps if the spell effect were more savage in some way, it would be more in tune and actually work. I guess being a werewolf is also a little self-regulating because you can't just transform anywhere.

[barbara belmonte]

Beast form is something special. It's a temporary power you can't spam (arguably the key points), where you become a giant, furry badass. The idea of dying in a blizzard as a werewolf, when you couldn't even cancel the effect if you wanted to without a mod, well... That's just too pitiful. Plus, the second beast form ends, you're just another naked person in a blizzard and Frostfall goes back to treating you like everyone else. Allowing vampires and beast form werewolves to be exceptions fits fine because they literally ARE exceptions to the norm. Changing the list to vampires, beast form werewolves, and players who pick up spell school X just feels like accidental favoritism.


edit: Actually, in retrospect, using Hircine's Ring to do unlimited constitutive Werewolf transformations could be overpowered, especially as each transformation restores 20 exposure. I'm skeptical there's anyone out there running Frostfall and exploiting this, but might be something to keep in mind. I'm not sure if it's fixable without screwing regular players, though...

[Kevan Olson]

Lost this dang post the first time around. Let's see how it goes this time.

EDIT: STUPID website. I copypasted this into notepad. Used the find-replace option to replace all quote open tags to bold open tags, and all quote close tags to bold close tags. worked flawlessly, all quotes bolded, which means all quotes should have been quoted. Dumb as a butt. D:


They are the magical equivalent of alcohol. You lose (reduce, "restore") X exposure, immediately, which is a state that lasts Y seconds. After Y seconds is up, you gain (increase, "damage") it all back, plus 5. It was a trick of the mind, and the sudden change shocks you. It's a net loss situation. If you cast the effect again on yourself while the effect is active, it does nothing; it does not stack.

Totes get it now. It works the way I suggested it should work when I didn't get it. Awesome. Love it.


Water Walk was my favorite spell from Morrowind. I'm a little afraid of scope creep here. This sounds like a thing best served from a real magic mod. Let me think about it and perhaps do some research into who else has done this spell (if anyone).

Well, in Skyrim, water's not ever really a big obstacle. If the spell is a two-handed channel, I can't see it actually being used for anything else. You can't fight on water when you're dual channelling, you can't really escape enemies because they'll just swim to pursue you, and you really could just run in any direction to escape; in the end, Water Walk would only be, in my eyes, avoiding the frigid waters of Frostfall.


Dragonhalt: Hmmmm. Not bad. Keep the risk there, but temporarily give their combat abilities back. I think that could work. I probably wouldn't charge a material component for it, but, we'll see. If it were sufficiently expensive and annoyingly long to cast, it would balance itself I think. I'm really trying to save the material components for the spells that really create "something from nothing", or have very big effects, and I think the shelter spells qualify for that.

I feel material components are a great way to prevent enchanters from ruining spells like this early on. (Everyone can and usually will end up with a god-like Dovahkiin with 100 in everything, so it can't be avoided forever, but let's assume we balance with sane players in mind.) I feel a material component would prevent people who stack magicka cost reduction from abusing this otherwise powerful spell, but I also totally understand your stance on material-for-material.


Evaporation: On the one hand, I think a mage with billowing steam coming off of him as he channels a spell looks really awesome in my head. On the other, being wet is one of the riskiest things in the north. What about, only allowing you to dry off by 50% (Damp)? That would at least get you out of the Drenched and Wet penalties, without removing the risk entirely. I dunno, not sure yet. Or what about a channeled spell that dries the player, but also hurts them? (a la Equilibrium)

Would totally look awesome. I think an equilibrium type effect would be pretty awesome - steam is not the safest of things to come into contact with, but I suppose it depends on the rate of evaporation. Also, I can't see logic behind a spell designed to evaporate you to dryness only working... Half the way. Why stop there? Why not cast it again to get now-dry? A channelled pain-causing dryer spell would be pretty awesome.

I thought Conjure Tent would be boring, but maybe you're right in that there needs to be a lower-end option starting at 25 for a budding mage. My problem with it is someone teching up to 25 conjuration relatively quickly just for that spell and then going through the rest of the game never needing to carry a tent again. My definition of "serious mage" starts at about 50, anything less I consider amateur or casual spellsword without a serious magic commitment. The barrier to entry to circumvent the need to carry a tent I feel is probably too low at 25. It would need to be inferior to a normal tent. Especially in light of the fact that the Shelter spells are essentially a combination Fur + Leather tent, in that they keep you completely warm and dry; I think the high spell skill requirement and the material components offset this however.

I find it odd that budding mage starts at 25, but it does suggest that everyone is born with an innate capability of magicka, so 25 is about the starting area for a real mage. But that's why you add a perk requirement. People would dip into a skill enough to get some competency in the skill, but a perk investment (in unmodified vanilla-perks Skyrim) is a hefty investment, especially when, on harder difficulties, it is practically required to invest in certain things to simply be able to kill your way onward. For a non-mage, an investment of a perk into Conjuration is NOT worth a measy few carry points, but for someone heading up the serious mage path, it's almost nothing. Perhaps consider having the first tier be closer to 30 as well? That's slightly out of range for dippers, and approaching 'seriously going Conjuration' territory.

I want to keep the number of possible shelters in check. Too many and things get confusing, and people wouldn't use half of them. I'd rather refine the ideas around a few very good choices than add additional ones that might not get much use.

I agree entirely. Just the three is a perfect range: Beginner's tent at ~25-30, then mid-level tent with 1-storage and maybe 2 beds at ~50, and then extravagant, all out goodness at 100. I'd also, as a side note, have the storage for the mid-level tent be the same as the storage in the high level tent. (So if it's a chest in the mid level tent, then the chest in the high level tent is the same entity.)

Conjure Spriggan might as well be "summon firewood" with additional flavor, so we have to look at it in that context. The question is whether or not I would want such a spell, and the answer is generally no. I might also have a player expectation issue with this ("Why can't I keep it as a companion and let it fight with me?" "My spriggan attacked the jarl and now I'm homeless..." "I found my spriggan and Ysolda together, is that bad? Should I be worried?"). However, with Transmute Wood, I guess I sort-of already have a summon firewood spell. You just have to jump through more hoops to get it. Harvest Wood, Deadwood, pick up deadwood, transmute wood. Is that more fun or less fun than a spriggan that does it for you? I'm not sure. I'll seriously think about it, it might be cool.

(Rewriting this is a b***h... XD) It may as well be the same, yes, so let's look at the context. Your dichotomy, as previously stated, is that nonmagic survival solutions must a: be more permanent (axe: check.) b: cost much less over the long run (axe: check), and c: weigh far more (axe: check.).

Magicka-based survival solutions must be a: less permanent, b: cost much more over the long run and c: weigh far less. A Conjure Spriggan or even Conjure Firewood spell would check off all of these things. A: less permanent: only once per cast, and thus once per expenditure of time, magicka (doesn't seem like much but it is) and material components do you get wood/deadwood in return. Far less permanent than an axe. B: cost much more over the long run: material cost of reasonable level immediately makes this true. A reasonable magicka cost also makes a hefty dip in your survival, given multiple casts for multiple wood-gatherings, also costing more materials and time while you freeze slowly, but the magicka also has to go toward your shelter and possibly even your campfire, or if necessary your spells to prevent you from dying while you wait for wood. Potions down the drain just to survive, and then next time you roll into combat, you are left magicka-potion-less and shouting "OOM!" while getting your rear handed to you by angry orcs. It would be a balance and risk to weigh. Speaking of weight, C: it would be weightless, of course.

That's my take on it. If the Spriggan/spell also returned deadwood, Transmute Wood would always be useful.

Heh, Bound Axe. It's logical but I'm trying to keep things a little separated there. I'm already taking some artistic liberties with the bound cloaks; according to canon, conjuration only summons things directly "from Oblivion". So daedric-looking armor and weapons. Granted, Oblivion is just a type of plane, of which there are many, but still, I'm trying to keep that usage under control. Also the gameplay implications of that are not so hot.

Bound, Conjured and Summoned are three separate deals with Conjuration. In the Lore, Conjuration summons things from other planes, and conjures items from Magicka. The binding of weapons and armour, in the lore, were only ever of Daedric appearance, but since Skyrim, Conjuration is a lot further reaching than just Oblivion. Not only do the guards regularly quip at Conjuration experts to conjure them a sweetroll, or to the more powerful, 'conjure me a warm bed, will you?', but I doubt all of the Atronochs come from Oblivion itself. Also, the lore directly states that, while summoning calls a creature to you from another plane (easily manageable with something like the Spriggan), Conjuring is the creation of objects out of your magicka reserves, so creating anything is pretty possible, and also supported somewhat by lore. The only downside is that it is impermanent, so conjured firewood wouldn't make sense.

Bound weapons and armour are an odd one - they are technically conjured items, as they are not summoned, but created from Magicka (hence their appearance), but they are always in the form of Daedric items, which I believe part of the reasoning was that Daedric used to be cream of the crop for Morrowind/Oblivion. If it weren't thusly established, and weren't for the fact that Dragons only cropped up again so recently, I feel people would be conjuring weapons and armour in Dragonbone form instead. But that's neither here nor there. Bound Axe might not be the best, gameplay wise. Would require heavy balancing, and if you get around to a workable concept for Conjure Spriggan, it's not

Conjure fire-pit - Yea, the time and pacing and requirements of this would have to be carefully handled. It veers precariously close to "magicka-for-exposure-loss".

Again, material components, as it's essentially making 'something out of nothing', as you said. The timing, yes, would need to be carefully handled so it does not give you more than a few points, but as I also said, allows you to simply begin fuelling it. A tiny buffer of say, 5 points of exposure at most, however many seconds that would grant the player to begin fuelling it, or if it goes out, a brief time to scrounge materials to start it again and begin fuelling it.

Cloud Storage LOL. I guess that's a very accurate anology. Any sort of thing that follows the player is prone to failure (getting stuck, so on) and is something I want to avoid for the sake of my own sanity. But a summonable chest is fine, as long as it costs you something material to access it.

Followers seem to make a great go of it. You just teleport if the player gets out of X range and isn't looking. Easiest fix to pathfinding ever done in Skyrim. XD Plenty of mods cover it really well, but I've just never seen following storage aside from dumb-as-a-butt horses. XD But yes, summonable chests would be neat.


I'm in favor of this. I'd still not require a material component for these. In combat, magicka is the limiting factor. (In fact, it could be argued that all three stats, Health/Magicka/Stamina, only have relevance while in combat). Material component costs are really for things that happen outside of combat. I'm happy to allow your magicka to do the talking here. If you're in combat, you're wasting magicka for this at the expense of being able to cast other spells, which is a strategic choice. I would be cool with allowing you to absorb a flat amount of exposure per target, depending on the enemy and the environment. You bring up good points on who it should work on and who it shouldn't. An AOE variant might be pretty cool. I also agree that a Drain (instead of Absorb) Warmth spell doesn't really have enough oomph.

I agree with all of the above, though if no material component costs, then the limits on how much could be absorbed in X timeframe, as well as the 'absorption ratio' would have to be tweaked to adjust and balance. But there are a clearly defined set of numbers you can weak and balance, strictly put in place to directly prevent all abuse. Just got to find that sweetspot!

A couple of the ideas I was bouncing around were: a channeled spell that restores exposure, but only when indoors; the absorb spells (which I guess more logically fall under Destruction); some kind of Stasis spell that pauses exposure as long as the effect is maintained, but you can't move (though the utility of this would probably not be very good, I see this as just postponing the inevitable).

I was pondering the idea of a rooted Stasis spell, but the only use I could think of is waiting for your Spriggan to return with firewood when you're about to freeze to death. Otherwise it's quite useless. Absorb definitely would go under Destruction, as it'd strictly be a harmful spell. A channelled spell that restores exposure, regardless of where you are, is exactly what you're afraid of - magicka-to-EP. If anything suggested, I'd be avoiding that like the plague, because then the game simply becomes 'get indoors before freeze, channel some exposure yo.' 100% magicka reduction + some pots means the entire mechanic goes out the window. If you did this, there would have to be a similar limit to the absorb spells about how much exposure you could get back in X minutes, but still, this is direct magicka to EP, regardless of the indoor-requirement, I feel.

I'm not developing my own version of Wet and Cold; I'm not going to spend time doing things Wet and Cold does already really well.

Ah. I thought you previously stated you were working on integrating some of the features in Wet and Cold into the game. Well that's good to know, regardless. It's a neato mod that does things really nicely, and makes a great addition to Frostfall anyway. Maybe a little tandem development is in order - Wet and Cold handles all the visual effects of being cold-as-****, while Frostfall handles the crunchy bits! ;D

It's just not contextually relevant. You see a bandit, you fight the bandit. You don't stare at the bandit until he keels over. The bandit also has his own sense of self-worth, and it can be assumed that he's doing what he needs to do to get by. If this were D&D, i'd say you each get a modifier to AC and to-hit due to exposure and weather conditions.

This is true, but I've had some fights go on LONG... I just envisioned the coolness of, after absorbing as much of his EP as you can, he fights on, and you barely best him, but as you're getting closer to a final killing stroke, he simply kneels down, and never gets back up... Something totally poignant and kind of saddening about it...

Yea, this ended up not working out anyway, so don't worry about it.

A bit of a shame - I liked the concept, just not that it was bound strictly to a select few backpacks among all the backpacks. Sorry to hear it didn't go over well.

They used to, but they don't anymore, and never will again. It's too technically difficult with this many tents.

Yeah, durability in a well made tent is something I didn't particularly get. A tent, given its number of uses, would last a person who takes care of it many years. Skyrim, as I see it, is a game that takes place... Inside all of a year? I could see armour replacements in that time, given the terrifying and brutal combat and dragonz, but unless something came on up and ripped it up, I wouldn't see a tent wearing out too soon. Perhaps I'm putting too much faith in tentmakers, but they's damn durable!

It depends entirely on the spell requirements. If you have honest-to-goodness committed to a school of magic, then your method of doing things should reflect that playstyle. You could make a similar argument: "If I have Ebonyflesh from Alteration, and it boosts my Armor Rating by 300, that possibly negates the want of having a shield or heavy armor." Not everyone has teched up that high in Alteration or specialized in magic, so plenty of people still use armor and shields. As long as the requirements fit the playstyle, I'm cool with that.

Good point. My argument was toward the issues, I think, of your stated dichotomy - to put it in your words, I think I felt that the woodcutter's axe was somehow less permanent than a bound-axe spell or a spriggan conjure, but given the talk of increased requirements for the spriggan spell, and the cut of the bound-axe for lore issues, woodcutter's all the way for nonmages!

The dichotomy, overall, that I want to highlight, is:
Non-magical camping solutions are: more permanent, cost much less over the long run, weigh far more
Magical camping solutions are: less permanent, cost much more over the long run, weigh far less.

As referenced several times above, I love how simply stated and clean this is, and how well it applies. Mega thumbs up here.

As long as the costs match this paradigm then I'm fine with it. You are choosing to reclaim carry weight space by 1) specializing in magic, not something everyone does, and 2) spending money. You're not going to just "find" Quicksilver Ingots or Refined Malechite quite that easy. Iron ingots can be had more readily. This is a big reason why I want to keep the spell requirement for this at around 50.

I... Never had trouble coming across quicksilver ingots or refined malachite... >_> Really, I've never been 'in shortage' of it. That might just be me, however, packrat that I am! I tend to find everyone becomes god of everything in Skyrim toward the end, but as I said way above, that's not something you can ever try ot balance for, or everyone suffers forever. 50 I feel is a great point where you really are SrsMage McCastyPants, but I feel that you shouldn't push everything toward it for fear of dippers. I think 30+perk requirements (not just for first ranks either, I think superbasic perk requirements for most major things would be neat, but also a bit limiting, I guess...) 30+perk requirements would be a great limiter and prevent most-to-all dippers; as I said, a single perk is a big decision for most all of the early and mid game, and thusly a great deterrent.


Thanks for taking the time to read the mega post and this response. Really hope you got something useful out of it all!



One thing I just want to say that's been worrying me about these "Absorb Heat" spells is to take care in keeping them from being too strong. Maybe humanoids only, and they give a debuff that allows you to only get the effect once per x hours?

I'm imagining bad possibilities of using followers as heat batteries, or running around blasting all the foxes/deer you see in a blizzard. While all this may logically make sense, it's not the sort of gameplay that I think would be stimulating, rewarding, or really even fun. So far, Frostfall has went to good lengths to reward the player for being prepared, or punish the player for being ill prepared and taking needless risks. I'm just not sure how the Absorb Heat spells currently being described fit these criteria. You get that spell, don't run around naked, and frankly, it sounds like it could be GG.

The hostile target thing is a good idea, but followers will happily forgive you after smashing them to bits. Essential/protected targets might even forget you were attacking them once you've beat them. The idea of stretching it out so you're in combat longer I think rewards cheap behavior more than normal behavior. I think you're absolutely right in some of the limitations you've suggested, I just don't think they're strict enough yet.

For an example, in another game, you could cast drain life on enemies. It has many of the same limitations you outlined, but a player can just cast that spell on half a dozen low level enemies, run around, and get the full effect. How can we stop players from doing that to a deer herd? Shouldn't we want to? You mention mana costs... Should we allow mages who stack to 100% magic reduction to be that much better than mages who don't exploit that? The other spells, I think, can be balanced so as to maintain an even playing field. I'm not so sure combat spells, like Absorb Heat, can be.

EDIT: I had a response to this that carefully outlined all of the effects of the balance options I mentioned for absorb spells, and how easily one could tweak it to completely underpower the spell in just a few points. I even covered possible basic scripting to prevent the spell's effects from affecting all companions, but still giving the 'hostile spell cast on me' marker. However, this was written previous to Chesko's post on Fitting Into Frostfall, and basically became irrelevant. I do agree with the idea that Frostfall is mostly if not entirely non-combat. I feel that Absorb spells are also non-combat spells in that they cannot kill and cannot cause actual damage, but simply spells that one would only use on targets you do not want to live anymore.

But I also strongly agree that they feel... Lacking, thematically. There's something missing from them that harkens to Frostfall's grand scheme. Drawing warmth from a fresh corpse is closer, I feel, to a fitting thematic, but also much more, well, brutal, in a sense. More gruesome. And also bodies in a frigid wasteland do not stay warm for long. Perhaps it is simply not possible to have a Destruction spell, spells designed solely for the ending of things, to benefit one's internal temperature in a fitting way... I feel the same about the Restoration spell ideas Chesko previously considered.




Again, thank you Chesko for the amazing mod, and I really hope you get some use out of all this!

[Kayleigh Williams]

Chesko,

I had a thought. In the vanilla game, you can tan animal hides and produce leather. In Frostfall, you can clean animal hides to produce cleaned pelts. I may be mistaken, but I don't think you can convert the cleaned pelts to leather. Is that simply something you have not implemented or is there a design reason for that? Is there any reason why you shouldn't be able to tan the cleaned pelts as well? I'm not familiar with the actual process of making leather, so there may be something I am misunderstanding here, or maybe it's to make the player choose how to use his resources, but I was curious about this.

Please correct me if I am missing something.

[Laura Ellaby]

So many words, I'm struggling to remember things I thought when reading! (that's aimed at both of you )
One point, you were trying to add more magical aspects/options to FF, so I don't think it's fair to say the absorb spells don't fit it's aesthetic/complement the mod. Clearly you think magic will complement the mod, and more specifically, Destruction spells will complement all the other schools which have spells suggested for them. The thing is, Destruction is a very straightforward school, and so the spells have to be pretty direct. They also are only used on other actors, (except debatably the cloak spells, but that's pedantry.) It makes sense for them to be the only spells directly affecting the player/enemy's EP. To be honest, when playing a pure mage, I rarely cast buffs on myself (such as oakflesh), instead just dodging a lot, because of the dent they make in my magicka pool. So I'd be very slow to use such a spell, and it'd be used when being cold was impairing me more than losing that much magicka would.
Of course, this brings me onto an issue of connecting magic and exposure. Over time, Magicka will only increase, and your EP scale will remain constant. We don't want spells to become less effective as your magical ability grows, but this means to balance EP spells we need to make them unusable by low level characters (clearly a pain.)
Now one way that sprang to mind is the EP scale changing over time, i.e. you take longer to die of exposure. That could be realistic (your hardened constitution) but it couldn't increase by that much, or else we'd have some more balance issues. It'd also be easier to understand with a visible bar, as the threshold for cold, freezing etc. would be percentages of your overall EP. I'm not sure I like this idea.

Right, one last idea, which is destruction oriented: A spell with a name like Enkindle/Enflame/Incandescense etc. which is cast on a fire, and causes it to burn 4x as fast while emitting 2x the heat. It's useful for impatient mages, and convenient sometimes, but it costs more overall, requires the same materials as you already needed, and fits with the school, as you're impatiently and directly destroying the wood. (the name should mean something to do with burning faster, there's a word I'm thinking of but I can't place it.)

[jennie xhx]

(Everyone can and usually will end up with a god-like Dovahkiin with 100 in everything, so it can't be avoided forever, but let's assume we balance with sane players in mind.)

Yes. That's not the kind of character or player that I'm targeting.

if it's a chest in the mid level tent, then the chest in the high level tent is the same entity.

That would be the plan.

One point, you were trying to add more magical aspects/options to FF, so I don't think it's fair to say the absorb spells don't fit it's aesthetic/complement the mod. Clearly you think magic will complement the mod, and more specifically, Destruction spells will complement all the other schools which have spells suggested for them.

The thematic concern can be summarized in the first few sentences from the Survivor's Guide to Skyrim:

If cold is an agent of darkness and death, fire is the sentinel of light and life.

I am definitely pushing in the direction that fire is symbolic of a lot of things like light, hope, security, warmth, food, so on. Camping also forces you to slow down a little in an otherwise endless pursuit of going from A to B to return X to NPC Y. Stop and smell the roses, etc. I think this is the one thing that people don't want me to cheapen, in the same way that the player's HP is essentially value-less. So that's why a lot of the spells have been more towards the "magic as a utility" theme.

I think there might possibly be a way to offer a magicka-based EP restoration system that fits, but doing so would require digging a bit deeper and understanding what exactly it is about camping that is worth protecting and emulating, the individual elements. What Would Gandalf Do? (I recall the Fellowship making many mundane campfires when in his company; it's up to the reader to decide if that was for a reason, or was just his personality not to show off).

So I'd be very slow to use such a spell, and it'd be used when being cold was impairing me more than losing that much magicka would.

Is your argument that you wouldn't get use out of those spells because you don't have a vested interest in Alteration? (Which is valid)

Now one way that sprang to mind is the EP scale changing over time

You can put that one out of your mind, not going to go there I would much, much rather just modify the rate at which you are exposed. It's the same net change.

In Frostfall, you can clean animal hides to produce cleaned pelts. I may be mistaken, but I don't think you can convert the cleaned pelts to leather. Is that simply something you have not implemented or is there a design reason for that?

It's time consuming to implement and I just haven't done it.

Perhaps it is simply not possible to have a Destruction spell, spells designed solely for the ending of things, to benefit one's internal temperature in a fitting way...

Yea, unfortunately things are pointing that way. It feels as interesting as a spell that increases the opponent's blood pressure.

Someone suggested Fire and Frost spells having a direct impact on your exposure resistance, which I think is an interesting idea worth noting.

Thank you all for the lively discussion.

[lucile]

Yea, unfortunately things are pointing that way. It feels as interesting as a spell that increases the opponent's blood pressure.

Didn't flame cloak once allow swimming in frigid water while active (or am I imagining this)? Maybe that could fit destruction as a separate spell. Less duration than frostberry extract, but the convenience of not having to carry that foul liquid in your backpack.

[Chenae Butler]

It's time consuming to implement and I just haven't done it.

Cool, thanks for answering.

[Wayland Neace]

I can confirm that Dragonborn's armor is supported out of the box Enjoy!

[Sophie Miller]

There are a couple of Dragonborn issues that I'm working through right now and hope to have a patch for this evening.

* Camping outside on Solstheim in certain areas may result in unexpected behavior.
* Equipment from loot that is enchanted won't have the intended WEAR values. The base armor, however, will.
* Certain campfires and forges on Solstheim do not emit heat as intended.

Working on it now, stay tuned.

And for what it's worth, picking through the data files for this thing, this is a HUGE expansion. I'm really impressed.

[Amysaurusrex]

Chesko: If you've not been tracking the unofficial UDBP thread, be wary: Dragonborn is HORRIFICALLY buggy at the moment, apparently, with internal hard-coded issues all over the shop. Huge expansion, huge bugs all over apparently. So keep an eye out if you're updating with Dragonborn, it may stab you in the back like a long trusted friend on a cold night when you've only got one ration of food left... >_>

[DAVId Bryant]

I think your exajuratting quite a bit.

[Camden Unglesbee]

No, there really are a lot of gamebreaking bugs in Dragonborn. Please don't make any future Frostfall updates
dependent on Dragonborn, Chesko. Not that I actually think you would.

[Eliza Potter]

Really? In the 12 hours the mod has been out it's suddenly broken everyone's game? From the discussion on the UDBP I would say you're speaking in hyperbole.

Leave the mod authors alone and let them do what they need to do. To many bleeting lambs who's problems are either from mods or poor modding practice, yet they don't understand the difference.

[maya papps]

So, I worked about 70% of the way through my Dragonborn to-do list. I'll pick it back up in the morning and have the update sometime tomorrow. Thanks for your patience.

Spoiler-free list of items for Frostfall 2.2:

Dragonborn Issues:
* Sleeping in a tent in Solstheim would result in floating back to your tent after something happens.
* All enchanted armor from loot now has proper exposure protection values applied.
* You can now rip up clothing added by Dragonborn to make Linen Wraps.
* Solstheim now has the intended temperatures.
* Other worldspaces now have the intended temperature.
* You can now harvest wood from trees on Solstheim.
* Ash storms are now recognized by the weather system correctly.
* Ash storms on Solstheim now apply ash effects on tents after sleeping in them.

General Issues:
* Packed missing sound files, which were the shiver sound effects. They were supposed to be in the last patch release, but were mistakenly not included.
* Fur boots were not providing the right exposure protection.
* The hand warming animations from 2.1 now behave much better. You should no longer be stuck in 3rd person view. The animation should no longer stop working after a period of time.
* You can now turn off Frostfall System Notifications, such as "You are now prepared to use camping equipment", and "Your scripting system is performing too poorly".
* A new leather dynamic backpack has been added, in 3 colors, courtesy of Tumbajamba.
* A new hide tent mesh has been added for the Small Hide Tent, courtesy of Tumbajamba.
* Verified Bandoliers no longer displays "gloves" message.

[Marilú]

Chesko: If you've not been tracking the unofficial UDBP thread, be wary: Dragonborn is HORRIFICALLY buggy at the moment, apparently, with internal hard-coded issues all over the shop. Huge expansion, huge bugs all over apparently. So keep an eye out if you're updating with Dragonborn, it may stab you in the back like a long trusted friend on a cold night when you've only got one ration of food left... &--#62;_&--#62;

No, there really are a lot of gamebreaking bugs in Dragonborn. Please don't make any future Frostfall updates
dependent on Dragonborn, Chesko. Not that I actually think you would.

Frostfall is not dependent on Dragonborn.esm. Keep calm, carry on.

[Prue]

Really? In the 12 hours the mod has been out it's suddenly broken everyone's game? From the discussion on the UDBP I would say you're speaking in hyperbole.

Leave the mod authors alone and let them do what they need to do. To many bleeting lambs who's problems are either from mods or poor modding practice, yet they don't understand the difference.

Firstly, no, I'm not exaggerating, it was an attempt at a predictive assessment. Within a few hours of investigating the mod, numerous issues and discrepancies were found, some of which were apparently hard-coded, that could have caused issues, and a number in fact did. Some have been fixed by the recent release of UDBP in its first form, but while some are temporary fixes, some bugs are still unfixed. From such a rapid discovery of mod issues, I assumed that a much larger portion of the mod content would suffer similar issues, given the rate of error discovery in such a short amount of time. As I said, that's not exaggeration, that's prediction based on current patterns.

Secondly, I don't appreciate you A: assuming I'm being a bleating lamb and B: assuming my knowledge of modding practice had anything to do with this issue. I have, for reference, been installing, maintaining and playing with mods, including Wrye and BAIN usage, since Morrowind first dropped, so I feel I've got a handle on the basics, thanks. It's not a modding issue at any rate anyway, because the problems were strictly in the Dragonborn files. So automatically the second half of your post is completely irrelevant and and frankly a touch insulting.

I was giving a friendly warning to Chesko in case he had begun working on Frostfall Dragonborn issues without seeing the number of issues Dragonborn was causing - my concern was that an issue in Dragonborn might affect his work in Frostfall. Thankfully not. So, no, I won't leave the mod authors alone, because what I'm doing is providing feedback, something mod authors request.

---

Back on topic, as a good post should be - good to hear about the bandolier fixes, Chesko, among many others you've got rolling. Never expected you to ever make Frostfall dependent on any DLC, was just a quick warning in case any of the errors that were rapidly cropping up in Dragonborn caused you any strife you couldn't immediately work out. Keep up the good work.

[benjamin corsini]

Ignore, problem solved

[Kat Lehmann]

But yet once again i thank you chesko....no need to tell you keep up the good work.

[Mackenzie]

Hmm, it seems it is a good thing that the new character I rolled is a currently kidnapped and marooned Skaal in Skyrim and I haven't done anything in Solstheim beyond a quick test to see if I can get there and if I can do anything in the Skaal village at this point in my game (answer:no).

I guess my character will have to wander the frigid north of Skyrim for a while until bugs are ironed out.

By the way, maybe I shouldn't have been surprised, but I was nevertheless, when I tossed on the Skaal coat I crafted (not allowed in default, something that my limited modding experience allowed me to do!) and saw it already had full protection. I'm guessing you used Skaal as a keyword to make it so.

As always, thank you for your work and support. I will happily wait until Frostfall is fully compatible before bothering to visit the island in earnest...which speaks volumes as to how important I feel your mod is to the experience.