Games with literary merit. Are there (m)any? : Othor Games

» Sat May 12, 2012 9:22 pm

I've never played this! Wasn't this a console exclusive? I think I wanted to get my hands on it, and then found out it was console-only. What a shame.

http://store.steampowered.com/app/3830/ There's even a demo on that page, and a Mac version was released recently too.

» Sun May 13, 2012 2:52 am

That's not what I'm asking, and there are wrong answers. That's why I've amended the topic to include people who just want to post about games they thought had good stories. It's also why I deleted my reply to that specific suggestion, because this thread is no longer about me judging people's answers. Unless they submit them for judgment -- that is, inclusion in the official list. :tongue:

You are judging people's answers by stating what suggestions you don't consider to be literary. They're wrong to you, that doesn't make them wrong, and it doesn't mean they're not literary. That's what StrangeLove was trying to tell you. It's like asking us what paintings we consider to be 'art'.

» Sat May 12, 2012 9:35 pm

Not that I really care what games you think are literary, but this whole list is really just your personal taste.

Okay. Please explain to me what is so complex about Mass Effect. Or, explain to me how it examines and touches on the fundamentals of human existence.

Apart from the Geth (which is a really interesting aspect of ME that they really should have focused more on; more's the shame that they don't appear in ME3), there's absolutely nothing "Literary" about the Mass Effect series.

The Geth, and the interaction between the warrior race and the science race. There is a lot there to explore, and it's not being explored.

» Sat May 12, 2012 7:18 pm

http://store.steampowered.com/app/3830/ There's even a demo on that page, and a Mac version was released recently too.

Is the PC port as good as the console version was? I may pick it up again.

» Sun May 13, 2012 3:04 am

Is the PC port as good as the console version was? I may pick it up again.

It's pretty good. Especially with the recent series of updates (that came out of nowhere) which solved a few remaining issues.

Only big difference is that it also makes the Meat Circus level a little bit easier.

» Sun May 13, 2012 5:15 am

It's pretty good. Especially with the recent series of updates (that came out of nowhere) which solved a few remaining issues.

Only big difference is that it also makes the Meat Circus level a little bit easier.

They just sold one more unit. To me.

» Sat May 12, 2012 11:33 pm

Okay. Please explain to me what is so complex about Mass Effect. Or, explain to me how it examines and touches on the fundamentals of human existence.

Apart from the Geth (which is a really interesting aspect of ME that they really should have focused more on; more's the shame that they don't appear in ME3), there's absolutely nothing "Literary" about the Mass Effect series.

The Geth, and the interaction between the warrior race and the science race. There is a lot there to explore, and it's not being explored.

Do you really want me to do that? Okay. . .

Spoiler

Mass Effect is (1) a space opera and (2) a game about your choices. Each choice you make is grounded in a quandary that speaks to the essence of humanity.

Do you wipe out the Rachni or save their Queen? This speaks to human nature - is it more important to trust and forgive a former enemy - or is the assured safety of the galaxy more important? Is a potential ally worth a potentially even deadlier foe?

Do you destroy the reaper base at the end of ME2? This speaks to a 'do the ends justify the means' narrative and is similar to using medical data gathered from unethical experiments during the Nazi era. Should such data be used, or is it forever sullied by how it was obtained? The same goes with genophage-curing research on unwitting living Krogans.

How about Sheppard siding with Cerberus? Is he justified in siding with xenophobic 'humans first' at the end of ME2 if he thinks they're humanity's best hope? Is the survival of humanity worth more - to a human - than that of other species? This speaks to racism and the struggle to assign rights/worth to non-human creatures.

What about the geth questioning their masters if they have a soul and their 'skynet' moment when their creators tried to destroy them? -- in your challenge you attempt to sidestep the geth for no discernable reason. Also the two groups of geth are heretics and non-heretics - which raises questions of religion - those who worship the old machines vs. those who value every species' right to self determination.

How about the ethical issues of committing slow-speed genocide on Krogans to assure the continuation of a three-species led Citadel. Was it justified? Is Wrex justified in disobeying your orders to destory a cure?

Is Thane evil? Will Liara be corrputed by having absolute power as the new Shadow Broker? Is it better to have no Shadow Broker or would the resulting chaos be worse than his machinations?

Yeah, Pong and Super Mario Bros probably aren't literature, but most modern games fall down to personal taste in that area. The question is -- do you consider it literature?

» Sun May 13, 2012 1:24 am

Do you really want me to do that? Okay. . .

[snip]

Spoiler

If the quandaries you describe were more front and centre, and if they tied better into the main progression of the story, sure, you'd have yourself an argument. The problem is, these examples are all relatively isolated from the core of the story, and most of them are shallow.
Example of the "Literary" way that "Issues" are handled: To Kill a Mockingbird.

What about character interactions in ME? They're shallow, too. This can be excused if, for instance, you're focusing more on the experience that the characters are going through, rather than on the characters themselves.
Example of the "Literary" way that "Character Experience" is handled: The Shadow of the Colossus.

Spoiler

It's a very simple story. A man goes on a journey to bring his love back from death. The whole game is about this and this alone. It's "Literary" in the "Classical" sense; there are countless stories of a similar vein.

Want a more contemporary example? The Human Stain.

What about complex character interactions, you say?
Examples of the "Literary" way that "Character Interactions" are handled: Closer or Who Killed Virginia Woolf or House of Sand and Fog.

Some stories are "Literary" mostly because they are so original and originally conveyed. ME certainly isn't original.
Example of "Literary" originality: China Mieville, Haruki Murakami.

Spoiler

(Although, Haruki Murakami's stories are also extremely personal and inter-personal narratives, concentrating on a few and people relationships with constrained precision. And China Mieville's stories are just weird, full stop.)

ME is like Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Bear with me.

Spoiler

Buffy also dealt with "Issues", "Characters" and "Experiences", but it never did so coherently and didn't bother to intertwine these examinations closely enough with its story. It did have gravitas and it did have some "important" things to say, but these were drowned out by its lack of focus. And the gravitas often veered into melodrama. Which is why it never won any serious accolades, even though an episode was even nominated for an Emmy.

So. There you have it. There's a difference between a good story and a "Literary" story.

» Sun May 13, 2012 4:19 am

Star Wars: KotOR? I mean, unless Star Wars somehow couldn't be properly considered literary (though there is an entire, vast book collection for the Star Wars universe and KotOR handled it's story very well and maturely).

» Sat May 12, 2012 5:26 pm

Okay. Please explain to me what is so complex about Mass Effect. Or, explain to me how it examines and touches on the fundamentals of human existence.

Apart from the Geth (which is a really interesting aspect of ME that they really should have focused more on; more's the shame that they don't appear in ME3), there's absolutely nothing "Literary" about the Mass Effect series.

The Geth, and the interaction between the warrior race and the science race. There is a lot there to explore, and it's not being explored.

In mass effect you have to choose whether Genocide of an entire species can ever be justified, whether mass sterilization is moral, and whether risking human lives in the name of aliens is really worth it, and as you say the Geth are very deep; should the quarians have tried to kill them, and are they actually alive, is rewriting ethical? Should the quarians try and reclaim their homeworld, would that war be justifiable? or for that matter is any war? And of course should a terrorist organisation be trusted with a WMD that could save life as we know it or should you risk trying to save the galaxy without it. I would say that is some pretty deep stuff that 'touches on the fundamentals of human existence.'

» Sat May 12, 2012 11:34 pm

I would suggest looking into the Marathon trilogy (1994-1996) by Bungie.

» Sun May 13, 2012 12:19 am

Note: I mean Literature-with-a-capital-L. Think Philip Roth, Ayn Rand, Shakespeare, Jane Austen, Mary Shelley, Haruki Murakami, China Mieville, Tolstoy ...

That is one of the more bizarre groupings of authors that I have seen. Also note, most of them have their serious "Literary" detractors who thought they were hacks.

You seem like you would rather browbeat people with your own definition of literature than have an honest discussion. Which is all beside the point, since video games are their own artform and have no reason to conform to any literary standards. It is like asking about the musical qualities of Impressionist paintings. It makes no sense.

» Sat May 12, 2012 7:43 pm

Stories and characterisations that I liked for varying reasons without worrying if they fit some arbitrary standard:

Pathologic
The Void
Darwinia
Katawa Shoujo
Planescape Torment
Mass Effect Series
The Witcher Series
Silent Hill 2
Alpha Centauri
Plus who can forget that deeply emotive classic – Doom.

» Sat May 12, 2012 9:38 pm

That is one of the more bizarre groupings of authors that I have seen. Also note, most of them have their serious "Literary" detractors who thought they were hacks.

You seem like you would rather browbeat people with your own definition of literature than have an honest discussion. Which is all beside the point, since video games are their own artform and have no reason to conform to any literary standards. It is like asking about the musical qualities of Impressionist paintings. It makes no sense.

You missed the point of this thread, there is not supposed to be any discussion. We're just here to make the op feel better about himself by giving him the opportunity to compare his refined taste in high culture to that of us lowly barbarians, who might prefer Stephen King or Robert Howard to the dreadfully boring rambling of Tolstoy.

» Sun May 13, 2012 6:51 am

You seem like you would rather browbeat people with your own definition of literature than have an honest discussion.

This wasn't actually meant to be a discussion thread. There are some games that are largely considered better than others in this respect. I was trying to find out which those were.

You cannot honestly tell me that people who actually know about these things would consider ME "literary".

I started a thread so I could bully people? REALLY?

» Sat May 12, 2012 10:06 pm

You missed the point of this thread, there is not supposed to be any discussion. We're just here to make the op feel better about himself by giving him the opportunity to compare his refined taste in high culture to that of us lowly barbarians, who might prefer Stephen King or Robert Howard to the dreadfully boring rambling of Tolstoy.

See my previous reply. Seriously? Where is all the venom coming from? Why is there so much anger over whether something is consider "Literary" or not?

I didn't say one was better than the other. It's just different. I like pulp. I enjoy pulp. (So there: Your fragile egos can now remain intact.) I wouldn't call it "Literary", though.

» Sun May 13, 2012 7:41 am

How is Portal literary and not Half Life 2, or Mass Effect, or KotOR, or Fallout? For the first point, Half Life 2 is the same 'world' as Portal, it has more than one character who talks and it's far more fleshed out. How is Portal so different?

EDIT: Also, here's Wiktionary's definition of Literary:

Adjective

1.) Relating to literature
2.) Relating to writers, or the proffesion of literature
3.) Knowledge of literature or writing
4.) Appropriate to literature rather than everyday writing
5.) Bookish.

» Sun May 13, 2012 6:05 am

You missed the point of this thread, there is not supposed to be any discussion. We're just here to make the op feel better about himself by giving him the opportunity to compare his refined taste in high culture to that of us lowly barbarians, who might prefer Stephen King or Robert Howard to the dreadfully boring rambling of Tolstoy.

Don't knock Tolstoy, I've been using it as a door stop since secondary school. It has served its purpose magnificently.

» Sat May 12, 2012 7:22 pm

Star Wars: KotOR? I mean, unless Star Wars somehow couldn't be properly considered literary (though there is an entire, vast book collection for the Star Wars universe and KotOR handled it's story very well and maturely).

Anyone have an opinion on this? I haven't played it, so I have no clue. I know it's generally considered good, though. Is it any more "Literary" than Bioware's other writing, though?

» Sun May 13, 2012 4:25 am

You cannot honestly tell me that people who actually know about these things would consider ME "literary".

Of course not. Literature is the art of the written word. Mass Effecft does not present its thoughts and ideas in a written fashion, which is obvious since it is a video game and not a novel. That, however, was not your point so far as I have understood it. Your point seems to be more about its artistic merit, which I would consider to be of the same caliber as the writings of authors like Arthur C. Clarke and Isaac Asimov from which it takes its inspiration. Take from THAT what you will.

I liked how you used the phrase "people who know about these things," by the way. It quite admirably marginalizes your detractors as clueless manapes that couldn't tell Stoker from Meyer. Touché!

The only game I can think of that could conceivably be judged on its literary merit is Planescape: Torment, since much of the game is presented in the form of written dialogue. Even there, however, it exceeds the form of literature with its interactive, choice-driven nature.

I started a thread so I could bully people? REALLY?

Happens more often than you might think.

I like pulp. I enjoy pulp.

We gathered that when you mentioned China Miéville.

» Sun May 13, 2012 4:13 am

I hate Atlas Shrugged, honestly, but it's considered a classic, so it is.

There you go, the exact same thing people did to you and Atlas is what your doing to this thread and people's suggestions. Life isn't tailored to you, to anybody. You either like something, or you don't. Meaningless suggestions are all meaningless. I think a more interesting thing, is why do so many people like Atlas Shrugged? Why do a lot of people take a message away from it compared to so many other books? Because people can really like anything. Give it a few years, when all the old people are dead. The new generation will be trying to convince our generation of somethings merit. The new seek the approval of the old, thank god for time. We'll be in the position of having "good" video game classics.

But in the end it's all just a pile of [censored], and someones opinion. No offense to anyone, but that's just how it is. People can and do take lessons away from everything.

Edit
The exact same [censored] stories since time immemorial. Just swiching the people around, but all the same basic lessons.

Edit2
OHHH, your even more... uh unique than I gave you credit for. That's like going to a movie and asking for litterary text. Wrong media pal, you want the next forum over. If you mean actual TEXT your in the very wrong place.

» Sat May 12, 2012 9:56 pm

This wasn't actually meant to be a discussion thread. There are some games that are largely considered better than others in this respect. I was trying to find out which those were.

You cannot honestly tell me that people who actually know about these things would consider ME "literary".

I started a thread so I could bully people? REALLY?

"These things" i.e. literary are subjective this is why games are so hard to classify as an art form, because there is no solid definition that conclusively states an artform is .... other than a medium for artistic expression which can be interpreted any way you like

Of course not. Literature is the art of the written word. Mass Effect does not present its thoughts and ideas in a written fashion, which is obvious since it is a video game and not a novel. That, however, was not your point so far as I have understood it. Your point seems to be more about its artistic merit, which I would consider to be of the same caliber as the writings of authors like Arthur C. Clarke and Isaac Asimov from which it takes its inspiration. Take from THAT what you will.

Precisely

» Sun May 13, 2012 3:06 am

[snap]

Basically, you're trying to hijack the thread to tell me that the whole thread is pointless and that I am an elitist [censored] for trying to sort the "pulpy" games from the "literary" ones. Thanks.

Whatever issue you have, it's clearly not with me. Please get out of this thread.

» Sun May 13, 2012 6:07 am

[censored] it. Whatever. Thanks for hijacking the thread, guys.

/thread

» Sun May 13, 2012 3:53 am

Basically, you're trying to hijack the thread to tell me that the whole thread is pointless and that I am an elitist [censored] for trying to sort the "pulpy" games from the "literary" ones. Thanks.

Whatever issue you have, it's clearly not with me. Please get out of this thread.

it is what your doing though, don't try and hide it. We all do these things to make ourselves feel better from a psychological perspective. You've got the ones you consider better than the others, and the ones you enjoy but aren't better. You are in fact creating classes of books, and judging them on a subconscious level. We all do it, but you need to realize when your doing it that way you can stop if you ever wanted to. Or not, it's really up to you.

Edit
If your an elitist, is another matter. I would say only if you find people who read "not litterary" books as inferior. A very very mild (and incredibly common) case though, everyone has their degree of self centeredness.