Harkon - backstory theory <Spoilers> : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Tue Jun 07, 2016 11:53 pm

When You meet Harkon and join up with the Vampire's, he tells you a little story about how he was a powerfull king in an age long forgotten and he could not escape mortality so he turned himself and his family into vampires . Serana on the other hand comments on the tomb where we find her that "It looks diffrent". In Notes on Dimhallow Crypt volume III we can read that the chamber was buid as an addition to the crypt.

From these little bits of information we can extract:

- Serana was sealed within Dimhallow firstly, than the chamber was build and gargoyles were put to guard her.
- Serana remembers the way out and was not expecting the draugr. Maybe there were there, but sleeping and the recent come back of Alduin awake them.
- One chamber in Dimhallow has an arena with a fire pit in the center. And ofcourse a dragon wall - very rough translation :

Here lies (the) body of Zvala

Who (word needed) strength to

(word needed)

but not stamina to

(word needed)

many

- She is not suprised about dragons roaming the sky. - which could be an oversight or I am completely wrong on what I will write next.

- She is suprised by Cyrodillic Empire - Empire dates : Septim (2E 897- not ended) , Remanian(1E 2703- 2E 430)

or Allesian(1E 243 - 1E 498) empires. This can mean that she was put in the tomb before Remanian or Allesian empires times. Or Could be tied up to a Tamrielic war which will be presented in TES:O. My guess goes to after Remanian and before Septim. As she is suprised that there is an empire in Cyrodill and she knows the name of the province which was named after Reman the first. Maybe there will be a sidequest in TESO about Serana? Who knows.

Another evidence for this to be actually true is the strong presence of Molag Bal in this time period.

- Harkon and his family are nords, more sophisticated and not afraid of magic. And Harkon called himself "King" that leads me to believe he was an independent King in Skyrim(as there were some of the territories who were not jarldom but kingdoms in High Kingdom of Skyrim) or High Rock (when Skyrim hold lands there) . Serana comments on Solitude and Windhelm - that she read about them, and the Reach that "her father didn't want to live there". So we can rule out those as Harkon's lands. Riften would not be it becuase the ruler of the Rift was a Jarl - as we are told in the ancient dawnguard backstory. My guess would be Falkreath as it was described as a powerfull Colovian kingdom, and as I recall Harkon described himself as a warlord. Also there is an ancient vampiric castle called "Bloodlet Throne" and with Dawnguard installed, there are gargoyles there.

To sum up. Harkon in my oppinion was a Colovian warlord with Nordic ancestry. The ruler of Falkreath. And he was turned into a vampire lord at the time of Molag Bals invasion on Tamriel. After the invasion was over, he fled to Castle Volkahir (as being the worshipper of Molag Bal that could be a big problem from the population) , that's why Cuhlecain and Tiber Septim could conquer Falkreath Kingdom easly - the kingdom would go to despair and civil conflict without a ruler . When Molag's Bal invasion failed he found a prophecy about vampires and got obsessed about it. That lead Valerica to hide Serana and herself from him. So with this estimates I propose Harkon's age to about 1000 years.

Thank's for reading.

» Tue Jun 07, 2016 7:59 pm

Nice read, but some things are off, he never fled actually, his vampirism was gained through power when he "sacrificed thousands" to molag bal, which he says himself in order to defeat mortality.

Also I dont know much about his controlled lands but, in the case of the reach when he says he doesnt want her living there, maybe because he thinks that land is filled with weaklings and he simply did not wish her to live amongst his slaves? Other than that, great read, I dont know much of Molag's invasion though

» Wed Jun 08, 2016 1:16 am

Sacrificing thousands to Molag Bal could be another thing tieing him with the time period of Bal's invasion. It makes perfect sense. Bal attacks Tamriel and eats souls for lunch, and there is this puny warlord who gives souls directly to Bal as he had a strong presence on Tamriel. Ofcourse please regard all of this as pure speculation, and I can be (and probably I am) wrong.

» Tue Jun 07, 2016 6:55 pm

Another piece of evidence is Galbedor, the Paladin of Auriel. He was born before the prophecy was created and we know elves generaly don't become much older than a 1000 years. (excluding mages)

1. Nords haven't always been afraid of magic. In the past it was known as the clever craft. The recent distrust of magic stems from the Oblivion Crisis, the Thalmor e.a..
2.The only time that High Rock has been a part of Skyrim is during the First Empire of the Nords. That empire dissolved around 1E 700, about two thousand years before Harkon was supossedly born.
3. Jarlings are sometimes refered to as kingdoms. Harkon could have been a Jarl for all we know.

» Tue Jun 07, 2016 7:53 pm

1.My point of not being afraid of magic was exactly to underline that Harkon is way older than 200 years.

2. Yeah I suspected that much. That is why I am more sure about Colovia and Falkreath.

3. I think that would be weird if Harkon adressed himself as King even tho he was a Jarl in title. Why not just tell that he was a powerfull Jarl? A more common title in modern Skyrim.

And I must ask. Are you any chance the author of the Dragon priest mask retexture on the Nexus? :biggrin:

» Tue Jun 07, 2016 7:37 pm

Cyrodiil was not named after Reman Cyrodiil. Reman took the Elven name of the province.

In my opinion Serana and Harkon hail from the First Empire of the Nords since:

Serana asks whose the High King first and the ruler of the Skyrim Empire was a High King.
Serana is shocked that Cyrodiil has an Empire.

Harkon was probably a petty King of the Skyrim Empire, an equivalent to a Jarl, who may have ruled ancient Falkreath.

» Tue Jun 07, 2016 6:47 pm

The thing is Torygg was the High King of Skyrim even when Skyrim was an imperial province. The title of High King was in use almost at all times. And she could be shocked aswell that Cyrodill is a seat of an empire as she could expect that one of three faction from Bal's Invasion would rule over Tamriel. Also no faction at this time called itself an empire. Aldmeri Dominion, Ebonheart pack or daggerfall convenant were the waring factions. Nobody really expected Cyrodill to be the final winner. And who could expect a Nord born in Alcair to gain the imperial throne while fighting for some Colovian warlord.

This is all pure speculation and just some "detective" work with little information that we have.... I swear sometimes I think that the lore department is seriously lacking in staff.

» Tue Jun 07, 2016 9:54 pm

I'm afraid Gelbor is actually much older than other elves. I took screenshots ofmost of the conversations.

(Upon asking how he knew you were here for the bow)
"...For the thousands of years i've served as the Chantry's sentinel, there hasn't been a single visitor here for any other reason."

I think there is a good chance that Harkon and family tie into the TESO plotline, but the various conversations can be read another way. I get a 1E or even earlier vibe from them, but i'm likely wrong.

» Tue Jun 07, 2016 9:07 pm

But she seems genuinely shocked that Cyrodiil has an Empire. If she was born after Reman then at least 2 Cyrodiilic Empires have rose and fell and a 3rd one isn't exactly that shocking but a 1st one is.

Also if she isn't shocked by Dragons then it might be a hint back to the First Empire of the Nords in which Dragons still had a few numbers in Skyrim.

I see no evidence pointing against my theory in all honesty (I know there's not much supporting it but y'know)

» Tue Jun 07, 2016 11:42 am

Yeah I understand . I am really annoyed by the fact that there is little to none backstory to this - This is not like with the dwemer that could be ruined by telling us everything Bethesda . It's just some vampire maniac and his crazy family for **** sake . And we can not even ask Serana or anyone for more information. But on the other note It would be a great suprise if in TESO we would meet human Harkon or lend a hand in Serana's hiding. TES:O (even tho I do not fully trust in it being an MMO) has a potentiall to give us new insights in more recent events. I really hope that some of the unanswered question will be adressed in that.

» Tue Jun 07, 2016 1:51 pm

Yet he says that he does not know how the wayshrines actually work,as the magic was lost when he arrived. And Serana knows nothing about Falmer magic and culture.

The other thing that bugs me is: Alright we get it Harkon you are an old vampire with super powers, but if you didn't noticed there are dragons all over this land and Alduin is back so your little plan for taking control over skyrim is little far fetched when the destroyer of the world is flying around. Vampires should hate dragons - fire breath + children of Auriel/Akatosh. The only explanation I have is that he is really insane at the moment we meet him.

» Tue Jun 07, 2016 8:52 pm

He says thousands; he doesn't say he was there at the beggining. Either way I have no reaso to doubt what Gelbor tells me about his age as he has no reason to lie.

I assume that either Harkon puts no stock in the 'end of the world' as he has has lived through countless such supposed ends, doesn't put much stock in that paticular prophecy if he even knows about it, or Dawnguard is 'intended' to be played either before or after the main quest and not in the middle. Just thoughts though.

» Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:15 am

If Harkon was around during the time Alduin ruled Skyrim, so before the Alessian Empire he would have known about the world eating powers of Alduin and the threat the dragons posted. The fact that he does not seem to care seems to suggest to me that he couldn't possibly know that much about Alduin or fully realize the threat. Something he would have done if he was alive during that time.

As for the age of them, I agree with the conclusion first drawn here that they were most likely around anytime between the second and the third Empire. The problem with any time frame is however that it makes no sense for her to be surprised by a Cyrodiil Empire. If it was before Alessia then the Ayleids would have been a likely candidate for rule, if it is after then Cyrodiil already had 2 empires so nothing really surprising there. She couldn't have been born during the slave revolt either because it would have made sense for the Empire to have risen during that revolt and she would have known it. In between the second and third Empire however there is an argument to be made as Cyrodiil is nothing but a weak province by then and there are many candidates far more likely to take over. Whether it's Skyrim, the Dominion or even something as outlandish as Morrowind, they all make more sense then Cyrodiil if she lived during that time frame.

About Geledor, he was there for thousands of years according to that quote, but only after the knowledge of the magic dissapeared. This seems to suggest to me that the Falmer were at the very least already in decline by the time he appeared. Geledor also does not really matter when it comes to the age of Harkon and his family.

» Tue Jun 07, 2016 2:29 pm

I think that particular quote from Serana being suprised by an empire in Cyrodill wasn't thought through in the lore department. Most people know about the Septim empire, and let's face it. What percentege of gamers playing skyrim or any particular action rpg are playing it to read books and learn more about the lore. Lore maniacs are always the minority and some things are oversighted by the devs.

» Tue Jun 07, 2016 5:29 pm

Why are you people even attempting to justify the existence of TES:O?

It's more embarrassing than trying to justify the Prequels. Or 50 shades of Grey. Or Twilight.

Second

How? Why?

The Sacrificing of people to a particular daedric Lord hasn't exactly brought entire invasion forces, hell worshiping them only brings their slight attention (and then you do some errand work).

I don't see how him sacrificing thousands to Bal would exactly Bring the Warp upon Tamriel, Bal isn't the [censored] Blood God. (Or tzeentch)

» Tue Jun 07, 2016 11:33 pm

Because whether I like it or not, TES:O is going to be released and become a part of the lore. We'll have to deal with it just like Star Wars fans did.

I'm not too disturbed by it to be honest.

» Tue Jun 07, 2016 6:37 pm

Meh. I will be mostly interested in the lore of TES:O I don't think I will buy it . It could ruin my TES experience.

Proposed scenario:

Me - Vonos Saren: "Nerevar guide us. We Should take this mission, people of this once great city sufferred enough!"

HaXxoR12345LOL: waT U t4lk1ng DUDE! You heal I tank . Em her 4 teh L00T.

Vonos Saren: By Azura....

And I do not think that Star Wars fans dealt with it. I die a little when I hear from new fans that the phantom menace or (God help me) Attack of the Clones was the best Star Wars movie. But even with this little heart breaker I made my peace with it a long time ago. I suspect the same thing will happen with TES:O or Prometheus runining the Alien franchise for me in few months.

» Tue Jun 07, 2016 6:07 pm

He meant that he did that after the invasion began, and Bal's presence on Tamriel was strong. And he could give the souls directly to Coldharbour.

» Tue Jun 07, 2016 4:34 pm

I would guess that Harkon is from the late merethic era. When you talk to Durnaviir he talks of the time when dragons dominated the land and he was sent after Veronica during that time. When was the last time that dragons dominated? Merethic right?

» Wed Jun 08, 2016 1:48 am

If I am not mistaken he told "the dovah roamed the skies" so this was true until Tiber Septims time as this was the last time dragons were seen. The time proposed is after the Reman dynasty so the Dragonguard were present at this time, and progressed to the modern blades. Also dragons were present at the Dragon Brake at Daggerfall if my memory serves me well. And we learn that time in Soul Cairn has little meaning, that could mean that 500 hundred years for us is like 5 minutes for a trapped soul in Soul Cairn, many of the souls have no idea that the Allesian campaign is long over or the Oblivion Crisis.

» Tue Jun 07, 2016 3:54 pm

I'm gonna have to throw my hat in with the "First Empire of the Nords" crowd.

» Tue Jun 07, 2016 3:13 pm

Dragons were warlords vying for land and waging wars against each other.
Not hiding and being hunted down by the Blades.

Durnahviir implies that he needed an advantage over other dragons, as if that was the only threat. No mention of dragon slayers or Blades. I know his words are not enough to be definitive but if combined with what Sarana says when you just release her... best guess would have to be late merethic.

Edit: quoted myself instead of vaesapiens lol

» Wed Jun 08, 2016 12:15 am

Did anyone else notice that upon entering the Dwemer ruins for the Aetherium Forge questline, Serana makes a point of noticing that the Dwarves "... had really let there strongholds go..."? This would seem to imply the Dwemer were still around.

» Tue Jun 07, 2016 12:50 pm

Did anyone else notice that upon entering the Dwemer ruins for the Aetherium Forge questline, Serana makes a point of noticing that the Dwarves "... had really let there strongholds go..."? This would seem to imply the Dwemer were still around.

» Tue Jun 07, 2016 7:46 pm

Sorry to poke some holes but off a other thread we have determined the Harkon family is 4000 plus years old. Since they settled in Skyrim, and there in game race is nord by default of the 4000 year age that makes them all Nedes. So Harkon is not colovian he isn't even from Tameriel.

Above^^^^ isn't the Tribunal only 3000 years old if so Serana predates them so there is a chance she met dwarves.