Well no it doesn't have to be like that. I was thinking that attributes and skills could be completely different. Attributes would be a way to introduce something to the game or have influence on it:
Purse - add an item you didn't have earlier, lockpicks, a spare weapon, opium for a present and so on.
Fame - creating connections with npcs and introducing new ones
Nerve - handling hard situations, being trapped in a desert, being outnumbered
Code - for activating perks

Any other ideas?

How has this thread lasted so long with no mention of the tootinest attribute of the West : Orneriness?

So you want cowboy -esqe words to substitute for Stength, Intelligence, Agility, etc?

I think balance is more important than setting when designing an attribute system (assuming, that is, that you're gonna handle it with two tiers, skills and attributes). That means you can assign the context specific stuff like horse riding and using different guns to skills.

That said, I think strength, charisma and some variant of endurance/constitution are generally pretty essential. Although maybe less so strength in a game like this? Luck would also be good - for hustling poker. Although again you could handle that with true luck if you wanted to be more realistic. Intelligence is definitely less important than in magic-based games. And willpower can probably get absorbed into constitution. Perception is pretty important I guess. And some variant of agility (unless you combine that with strength - "fitness" is good...)

Actually, I think if I was making a game like this, I'd combine perception, intelligence and (what other people have been suggesting) nerve into one attribute, called wits. If films have taught me anything, it's that you gotta have your wits about you in the Wild West...

So my system would be something like:
Fitness (for body stuff - handling yourself in a fight, picking heavy stuff up, etc)
Constitution (for more long term physical stuff - health, coping with disease, how much food you need, etc)
Wits (ability with guns, but also ability to get out of trouble, or to spot it beforehand)
Charisma (speaks for itself...)

Then of course there's reputation, which is essential in this setting, but should probably be handled slightly differently (as in, by actions rather than training?) and purse, which I'd just handle as an item, because it makes sense.

Article http://www.gamegrene.com/node/59 on what Boot Hill did right and wrong.

Note particularly :
"1. Simple and Sensible - You've got five attributes (Strength, Coordination, Observation, Stature and Luck), all based on things you can't personally provide your character in the game. What do I mean by this? Well, note the absence of Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma--these are things that you, as a player, inevitably and necessarily bring to your character. Thus, rather than forcing you to play a stupid, nasty person, the game allows you to role-play to your heart's content using your own intelligence, only providing the necessary attributes to play the game."

Cowboy-ese words would be nice, although I don't know If I would be able to translate them into my native language.

A play on S.P.E.C.I.A.L.


C- Cow-Puncher - Strength
O- Outrider - Perception
W- Wrangler - Endurance
B- Bushwhacker - Agility
O- Outlaw - Luck
Y- Yegg - Charisma

Where's Intelligence? That's an insult to cowboys!

Just tack an S on at the end. "Smarts".

Better?

Yes.

Do we have no cowboy smileys? This is a travesty.

Gambling, (I suppose you will play poker in the saloons and stuff)
And Fist fighting/melee combat, for barfights/close encounters.

Cowboy-ese words would be nice, although I don't know If I would be able to translate them into my native language.

Maybe I'll add something about the setting. The games central theme isn't supposed to be the "wild west", but the concept of "freedom". The players are wanderers who follow a special code which most important rule sais "Your freedom ends, where another one's starts". The world is kind of a deconstuction of the concept itself, how many honoured by us values limit our freedom like faith, authority, pleasure, honor etc. It also talks about how freedom isolates people who stricly follow it, one of the parts of the code is "Now matter how many friends you have, you're always alone". The players are kind of the last of their kind, and see a world in which most frow away freedom because of fear and the lack of responsibility towards themselves or others.

Now, I chose a wild west-ish setting because I thought that was a place where freedom was manifested more than anywhere else. Cowboys also created a code of their own, because there wasn't really any law. Wild West is just a pretekst to talk make a game about freedom.

This might give you more insight into the game .

Sheriffin' (as in proficiency as a sheriff)

Sailors also had a code and plenty of freedom, I guess the best bet would be to describe, as much as possible, the physical world you envision as well as the technological time period in relation to Earths. Also, is this based on Earth or on a fantasy universe/planet?

Actually I'm doing it the other way around. First I want to concentrate on the "core" of the game, its philosophy, mechanics, the players motives etc. Only then I'll add the form to it, and create the details of the setting and the world. But I can tell you how I imagine it more or less at the moment.

The world would be kind of an alien fantasy. Different strange races, and possibly no humans, comparable to the computer series - oddworld or the bas-lag book series. The technology would be kind-of cyberpunk although not so naive and more subtle and dirty. Now there are two ways I imagined it:
1. More like the stereotypical late old west. On the one hand we have the stateless society which advocates freedom, properterianism and so on. On the other hand the statist and corporationist government slowly taking over. The characters would be kind of cowboy freedom-fighters with there own code a relict of an old era.
2. Here the characters would be similar but the world a bit different. We would have different states, each based on a value which in it's own way limits freedom.
- faith - a fundamentalist sect-society
- authority - an orwellian communist state
- greed - a corporationist country
- pleasure - a hedonistic dystopia
- honor - militaristic warriors on huge ship-cities

actually you could probably stick with the usual attributes

Strength: used for hand to hand combat (barfights anyone) and being able to move heavy objects or carry certain things
Dexterity: reflexes, your ability to draw your weapon and respond to attacks or stimulus
Endurance: tolerance for pain, able to take on the elements for longer with higher endurance, maybe you have a survival situation where the longer you out in the desert the more water you need, but your need is determined by your endurance, same goes to tolerance for harsh weather
Charisma: ability to mediate a situation diplomatically
intelligence: ability to precieve, you notice things someone else may not, and (if you have skills as well) higher intelligence gives more points to allocate

And why do you think I should use normal attributes?

And btw, sheriffin, playin cards are skills not attributes. Here is the info I wrote about the rpg earlier on:

Maybe I'll add something about the setting. The games central theme isn't supposed to be the "wild west", but the concept of "freedom". The players are wanderers who follow a special code which most important rule sais "Your freedom ends, where another one's starts". The world is kind of a deconstuction of the concept itself, how many honoured by us values limit our freedom like faith, authority, pleasure, honor etc. It also talks about how freedom isolates people who stricly follow it, one of the parts of the code is "Now matter how many friends you have, you're always alone". The players are kind of the last of their kind, and see a world in which most frow away freedom because of fear and the lack of responsibility towards themselves or others.

Now, I chose a wild west-ish setting because I thought that was a place where freedom was manifested more than anywhere else. Cowboys also created a code of their own, because there wasn't really any law. Wild West is just a pretekst to talk make a game about freedom.

Actually I'm doing it the other way around. First I want to concentrate on the "core" of the game, its philosophy, mechanics, the players motives etc. Only then I'll add the form to it, and create the details of the setting and the world. But I can tell you how I imagine it more or less at the moment.

The world would be kind of an alien fantasy. Different strange races, and possibly no humans, comparable to the computer series - oddworld or the bas-lag book series. The technology would be kind-of cyberpunk although not so naive and more subtle and dirty. Now there are two ways I imagined it:
1. More like the stereotypical late old west. On the one hand we have the stateless society which advocates freedom, properterianism and so on. On the other hand the statist and corporationist government slowly taking over. The characters would be kind of cowboy freedom-fighters with there own code a relict of an old era.
2. Here the characters would be similar but the world a bit different. We would have different states, each based on a value which in it's own way limits freedom.
- faith - a fundamentalist sect-society
- authority - an orwellian communist state
- greed - a corporationist country
- pleasure - a hedonistic dystopia
- honor - militaristic warriors on huge ship-cities

I understand where you come with this. But how you resolve situation where characters physical abilities are tested?

There would be basically two skills that would resolve these: fitness and perception. The first would be for melee and the second for guns. Every player has six bullets at the beginning of the game, the six-sided dice is thrown when you shoot. If you have a bullet in the lock (from 1 to 6) you shoot and make a test, if ithe lock was empty you miss if it has a bullet you shoot. There are many perks that can change the course of actions, with one you'll be able to add damage, with another you can move the lock one spot in either direction, with a different one you can dodge the bullet and so on.

I appreciate the deviation from typical attributes, and I'm not saying that you shouldn't work it like that - do so however you please, but guns don't work that way. Seems like you'll have to make ammo incredibly scarce for it to work, but not scarce enough that the player is helpless. It'll be a lot of trouble. Something like hit chance, a typical way of rolling hits, would make it easier on you.

Ammo doesn't have to be scarse. The point is risk is involved. You can try to shoot with just one or two bullets but then the risk is biger, or you can reload but you loose a turn. And I know guns don't really work that way . It was supposed to be more exciting than realistic, I want the players to think if they want to take the risk or just reload etc.

Damage would be made with the skill - perception. The player throws as many dice as he has skill, all above 3 count as one all below 4 count as zero, the other player throws for fitness with the same rules. A success gives one damage, if not you loose one bullet. If the player is hidden, every time after the player shoots a counter counter test is made - perception against stealth. I the player wins he has another chance to shoot, if not he is seen and they engage in a duel.

I like how it sounds. Have you prototyped it at all?
Yeah, I felt like kinda a jerk for saying that.

I tried it out in another game I made (an ancient type setting) and I must say, it worked quite well. So what do you think now of the attributes? Maybe something could be added?

And I have a question, does the game sound to political? All the talks about liberty and so on? Because it wasn't really my intention but now I'm thinking it might sound a bit like that.

Ha, now I even start to see problems in the game. I can't really resolve initiative, who starts and ends combat.