Something about the way she acts makes me think that girl is still a virgin and her idea of "dating" is more "Leave it to Beaver" style holding hands at the ice cream parlor than "six in the City" three dates then sixy-time. It wouldn't surprise me if she switch-hit, that's not uncommon among Goths.





Men don't interest me at all, but if I had a explosive collar around my neck and the holder of the detonator "suggested" I have gay six with them....does putting my life before my sixual preference make me bi? Nova doesn't have that level of coercion but it's clear she has little choice but to do what Moriarty demands...even Simms shows no sign of putting a stop to what Moriarty is doing to her and Gob. Pointing out they lack the free will to say no to a prospective client of the same six isn't being technical at all. You'd have a case with Sweetie or Beatrix from NV.....they have free will and can see who they will.

Eulogy is a stereotypical black street pimp....which happens to work well for a character in charge of a organized slaver ring. Just what kind of person do you expect to find running Paradise Falls? Someone like Chicago gangster Dion O'Bannion who could kill men without blinking yet wouldn't dream of staying out after 10pm without letting his wife know where he was so she wouldn't worry about him? One of the "perks" of being a slaver is having your way with the female captives....they needed to drive home how repellent they people the LW is dealing with at the Falls are, so they used that stereotype. Eulogy's there so a Good LW can administer some lethal justice on him, or a evil LW will have someone to pal around with. Dukov and Ronald are played for laughs more than anything else.....a drunken Russian lout with a voracious sixual appetite and a frustrated would-be lover who is chasing a woman so clueless she doesn't understand he's interested in her. They may not have as much respect for women as they should but they do have some. As far as Dukov and Ronald go....it depends on what your definition of "pervert" is. Being interested in having two women at once is unconventional but pretty tame, really...I hesitate to even describe the sort of things that would be considered perverted by most people on a Forum like this.

Guess this one will stay up here forever now...

That's because the only six you are allowed to have in Fallout must be emotionally meaningless and paid for



Baseless stereotype invented by men who fear unconventional women :down:

"Unconventional" earns you a lot of different titles, as a woman. :sadvaultboy:

See, most of you are finding ways or reasons to explain away the "gayness" of some of the established (i.e. canon) gay characters. It's the double-standard so prevalent in our modern North American society, i.e. "straight = normal".

What does the Goth subculture...and Bittercup is clearly a Goth or a parody of one...have to do with being a strong woman or not? I see you've edited it to "unconventional", but Goths don't strike me as threatening.

Do you mean me? As far as Nova and Clover go...I have seen no evidence they would engage in homosixual behavior if not compelled to by whoever controls them. When it comes to Nova, she quits prostitution and takes up openly with Gob before Moriarty's body even gets cold...I infer from that she's straight. When it comes to Clover, it's impossible to tell what her true preferences are, Eulogy killed whoever she really was. As far as Bittercup goes, I've heard Goths..male and female...are often sixually androgynous. I will say the only one I've known, a girl, was straight so I could be wrong there.

Strong was too imprecise of a word.

Goths are often characterized as more dominant and assertive than girls who are ‘girly’ and submissive. Therefore, the stereotype flows that they, like men, (who are stereotypically supposed to be dominant) must also be into women. The same stereotype is used for women who participate in sports or have 'male' jobs – they have a very apparent ‘male’ trait and thus, "logically," must be into women like men.

I didn’t say you saw them as threatening, I said that was how the stereotype began.

Bittercup isn't really Goth. She's Emo. . . :hehe:

In the meantime, we're pegged with titles that have a negative connotation or association, such as tomboy, butch, career woman, unfeminine...

Also, Surfer, in that vein I'm surprised someone hadn't brought up Moira as perhaps being lisbian, considering...

"Strong" and "unconventional," used in the feminist sense, which means simply anything positive outside of the stereotypical gendered, heteronormative female. Goth women aren't six freaks just because they dress a certain way or adopt some traits of a specific culture; more to the point, they aren't necessarily "goth" unless the choose to be called by that name. "Strong" women aren't supposed to be superior or "threatening," but simply equal.

Regarding Bittercup and the topic as a whole, I feel like non-experimental Vault life fosters heteronormative societal values to propagate the species, and perhaps that is a comment on pre-war culture in the game. However, I feel like in the wasteland most people don't really care who you sleep with - to have a companion is more important :foodndrink:

Also, though it can be taken as off-color, they even poke at this in the noncanon Nuka Break movie, to quote, "This is the wasteland - love is where you find it." I think the creators of that movie have a good sense of the spirit of the game and that line sums up the whole treatment of homosixuality in the wasteland - just another way to live your life.

?!?

...did you not read his post?

I'm either really dense or it's not on this thread. Or maybe I'm supposed to infer she likes girls because of her career choices or something. :blink:

This is also why I think Vegas did a really really good job with their gay characters, for all of them I don't think you would know they were gay unless you spoke with them and asked the right questions. But at the same time the characters are intersting and draw you in.

Agreed, NV presented well the fact that your average homosixual person is exactly that - an average person. I'm very pleased with the 'confirmed bachelor' perk - it's subtle, tasteful and adds a few nice little touches. FO3 went a little too far with subtlety, to the point of leaving pretty much all gay references as a matter of interpretation.

And, well, I guess many of us would like to see Bethesda be a little bolder with sixual themes in general in Fallout, as long as it was done tastefully, but personally (<-can't stress that enough) I'd rather have it as it is then for them to go the Bioware route... those romance options/six scenes really made me cringe, not to take anything away from the games themselves.

_{Ugh, I feel like I'm going off topic, and saying things that were said a million times before so I'll just shut up now. I'm just really bored at work at the moment.} :blush:

I'm surprised you left out Dave and his multiple wives in all the Dukov/Eulogy remarks.

Also, on a slightly related tangent, has anyone else noticed that if you sneak into Billy Creel's at night even though Maggie has her own bed she sleeps spooned by him in his bed? I've always taken that as the final perhaps less subtle hint that the nature of their relationship isn't quite so tradtional adoptive father/daughter as their public discourse might indicate.

And Shrapnel will scour the ends of the Wasteland looking for you after you have enslave Flak. I always assumed Shrapnel must love Flak to keep looking for you long after you give him to the slavers.

I, for one, don't see anything wrong with polygamy per se. . .as long as no one was forced into the marriage. . .but I always vigirously oppose Dave's re-election.



I did not know this. I actually thought there was something off about Creel and Maggie though. Strange its not alluded to if you take Child at Heart.

I wouldn't think they'd take the game that dark. . .although you can enslave Wilkins and Bumble, so I guess anything's possible. oo:

I snuck into Billy Creel's house last night to verify this.

1st attempt, 3:30: Billy slept in his own bed. Maggie was nowhere to be found at all. Billy somehow spotted me and chased me out, but not after I had verified that Maggie wasn't there at all.

2nd attempt, next night: 0:30: Billy was nowhere to be found at all. Maggie suddenly appeared behind me and seemed upset that I had broken into the house. So I left.

3rd attempt, same night: 1:30: Maggie slept in her own bed. Billy was nowhere to be found.

4th attempt, 3:30: Maggie still sleeping in her own bed. Billy still nowhere to be found.


I realize that I may have bugged out Billy somehow in the first night and that he may have gone to {0;0;0} or something. I am willing to investigate this on a reloaded game, while wearing the chinese stealth armor next time; but so far, it looks like Maggie+Billy sharing the same bed might have just been a hiccup in your game and not to be the rule.

Or perhaps they only share the bed on certain days, like Tenpenny Tower's residents and their bedtime habits.

I don't really care if they're homosixual or bisixual, I just play the game. Although I do notice some of them being one of the two.

I'll load my first character who I adandoned but still have the saves for and try to reconfirm this weekened. He lives in Megaton and has a good sneak and the CSA. Maybe I confused myself by killing Billy in bed and then seeing Maggie cuddling up to his corpse or something...

If you gain access to Moriaty's computer files they hint at something similar but I've always assumed that was the result of his cynicism about human nature. I've certainly seen nothing in Maggies behaviour to suggest Billy Creel abuses her.

I saw that entry as Moriarty projecting his own bahavior onto others. Since that is the only use he can think of for a little girl that is what Billy must be doing to her.

I went back and stalked Billy and Maggie for about a week in game hiding in their place in CSA armor and following them around all day...

I didn't see this again, though I'm not sure it was conclusive as not once during the week were her and Billy both asleep in the house at the same time...

Man, Maggie keeps some odd hours for a girl of her age, or at least was in that game.

I'm starting to wonder if what I saw in my evil char playthrough wasn't Maggie cuddled up next to Billy's corpse on the same bed.

If someone is forced into 'gay for pay' prostitution to survive, it has no bearing on their actual sixuality. Neither does a Jewish person pretending to be a Christian and attending church during the Nazi Holocaust make them Christian. People do what they have to to survive.

Maggie on rare occassion does sleep with Billy. I assumed it's because she sometimes has a really bad nightmare, and can't fall back asleep alone.

It's weird how people draw completely different assumptions.