But you sound 100% sure you are right, i guess even scientific are not 100% sure that animal does not have any consciousness at all. That what i meant, there is a margin of error, we can't be sure if they have, or not, a consciousness.

Long time ago, most intelligent people thought earth was flat, and look, now, if you think earth is flat, you will sound dumb.

Except I've presented proof that the majority of animals are not even self-aware. Try again.

Actually, if you watch QI, it turns out people never thought the world was flat.

Using Wikipedia and QI as references doesn't give you much credibility.

And knowing your own reflection is not neccasarilly proof that they have a lack of conscience. I think you are confusing the word with sentience?

Er, I've got to butt in, here. To my knowledge there is absolutely no fool-proof scientific method to prove self-consciousness in animals. We've tried numerous things, like the mirror test, but there has been nothing to outright prove it. There's also no reason to believe they don't have self-consciousness. Having been around cats, dogs, and birds my entire life, I'm inclined to believe they possess some level of self-consciousness, but it's limited by their level of intelligence. In other words, I don't believe they think like we do, but they think, in their own way. A dog feeling pain and remembering how it happened is no different than a human being feeling pain and remembering how it happened, as far as I can tell. It is the same function.

I've witnessed some startlingly intelligent behavior in animals. For instance, and this is an old story that my uncles relate to me often, the old family German Shepard. One time, he was barking up a storm, and one of the neighbors called the police. Soon as the police car turned the corner, he shut up and laid down. Once the police car was gone, he stood back up and started the barking again.

Although he was being an ass, you have to admire that sort of behavior.

It's just this. It just a little joke. He figures you're going to hunt a person.

That's all.

To misquote Freude: sometimes an arrow is just an arrow

Then perhaps we shouldn't compare them to advlts, we should compare them to small children. Dogs possess intelligence of an average two-year-old.

Chimpanzees, gorillas, dolphins, elephants are all capable of abstract thinking. Even dogs are, to some degree (proven, can link it if you want). Animals have demostrated the ability to plan, communicate, teach, make tools... Chimps can learn sign language!

There's no intellectual treshold when intelligence and abstract thinking starts. It's gradual; some animals are more intelligent than others. In any case, it doesn't have anything to do with their desire for life - if YOU were hunted, you wouldn't think clearly either. Your instincts would take over and you'd panic. Our brains might be more developed, just like a chimpanzee is more intelligent than a capuchin. But when it comes to taking a life, it doesn't matter if animals can speak or reason. All that matters is if they can suffer.


To the OP: You're seeing too much into it. The guy in Drunken Huntsman casually asks what you're hunting, and then in the middle of the sentence realizes you might be hunting people, that's all. He certainly doesn't say anything anti-hunting, as he's a hunter himself.

Actually, you're confusing what I said altogether. I said they're not capable of conscious thought. Not being self-aware is pretty indicative that they're not a conscious entity.

He can't prove it. Examples; chimps that learn sign launguage--http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0674008065 that have the intellect of a human three year old, solving puzzles unrehearsed.

I've always figured it was because I'm strutting around in my Dark Brotherhood gear.

Not recognising yourself in a mirror =\= not being self aware or not capable of conscious thought.

Actually... animals HAVE been found to have higher thinking capabilities than believed in centuries past. It's not on the same level as humans, but it's still there. Cats are particularly intelligent and emotional - You have to be smart to do stuff that stupid.

But on the subject at hand... My avatar is custom-made by myself to represent me on the internet. Ergo, it's the best.

On a trivial matter that was brought up... As others have noted, the Hunters in game aren't actually "Authorized" to hunt, and Conservation laws are probably draconian and irrelevant anyway.

"The Drunken Huntsman" is a perfectly acceptable name for the shop - Yes, it's humorous and self-deprecating, but it's a catchy name that's easily remembered.

As far as the "I don't want to know"... your character is obviously a killer, not a standard hunter. Even if you do hunt Deer, the arrows he sells are partially overkill. Honestly, I always get that line from the Fletcher in Solitude, not the fletchers in Whiterun.

Most animals are self-aware. Sure, they may not recognize themselves in a mirror - but that's probably because they don't know what they look like, or how a mirror works. Or that they give a damn about having a spot of rouge on their faces, or that their vision can allow them to even percieve reflections.

There are WAY too many problems with the "Mirror" test to work as proof of self-awareness (As anyone reading the Wikipedia article can see). My cat is quite vain about her appearance.

I`m sorry, but this whole thread topic is one molehill turned into a needless Everest.

I mean you`re really reaching to find insult to your lifestyle (and your community) from a game set in basically a silly fantasy land with lizard men and furry talking animals- and that`s the least of the silliness.

I wouldn`t insult my community by even comparing it to this game and yes, when it snows it looks a bit like Skyrim too, which, incidentally is copied from real life, so Skyrim is really nothing, just a copy of some stuff from real life meshed with silly fantasy.

Oh and I write fantasy by the way, but I don`t make the mistake of thinking it`s my reality.

This, I share the OP's disgust for pansy "anti-hunting" people but I do not think it was intentionally put into the game because of this.

I hope they put it in the next TES game to make people like you irate.


Yes, because opposing the removal of entire species from existance is obviously only for pansies.

If I had it my way, those who contribute to endangering species should be hunted as well, but this is not the time or place for such a discussion.

Um... Way to overreact.

This. I definitely got the impression he was implying you were going to hunt humans. And I haven't noticed anything about animal rights in this game.

Because anyone who hunts wants to completely eradicate a species... Please

Did you get your entire impression of hunters from Clayton in Tarzan?

Ahaha... you can thank the hunters that came before you that enabled human existence to continue for allowing you to be in such a position of privilege and luxury today that you can even have an opinion like that. Way to have no understanding of human history.

Considering that species eradication is the opposite goal of hunters, I'd have to say your entire premise here is unfounded. The leading cause of Endangered Species is loss of Habitat and Niche Competition, not hunting. Hunters are the most powerful proponents of Habitat Conservation and Proliferation. How can you hunt tigers if there are no tigers to hunt? The ones that are endangering species are the ones who strip the value of the lives of endangered species.

A mirror? Really? A dog's primary sense, the one he uses to perceive the world, is scent. It does not matter what he sees in the mirror, if it doesn't smell like himself it obviously isn't. You are guilty of expecting a dog to think like a human. Dogs are self aware, just because you can't put yourself in his place and figure out how he thinks, and just because he doesn't think in the same manner as a human doesn't mean he is incapable of being self aware. I really hope you aren't the one to first meet an intelligent alien--there's no way you could figure out it is intelligent and self aware unless it thinks exactly like a human, which is extremely unlikely.

This.

If scientists were 100% sure animals didn't have a conscience or emotions, why do they spend BILLIONS of dollars on research on this very subject every year?

Elephants have burial grounds. They are self aware, and KNOW when they are dying. They go to the same, secret place, a place they kept hidden from US, the most intelligent species on the planet, until what, 30 years ago or something? It took over 100 years of tracking them to find their secret burial sites. That's pretty smart.

This thread has gone WAY off topic!

I think your freaking out over nothing

don't forget skyrim was made by nerds and nerds DON"T HUNT

This is no longer applicable to Skyrim.