"The cry for innovation somehow just amounts to "just do it different!"

Actually no. We know EXACTLY what we want.

1. First person
2. Contact-based combat
3. Player housing (even if it is instanced)
4. Class-less
5. Usage-driven experience/skill gain

If you don't innovate, you have to polish and perfect. WoW polished and perfected. It is the supremum of any incarnation of Everquest. Going directly against WoW is financial suicide at this point ; Rift and SWToR are just barely clinging onto existence.

You're right, innovation doesn't always mean success, but without people trying we won't get anywhere.

Which is why I am thankful for The Secret World.

I was more takling about the MMO community as a whole. That TES fans have very specific ideas is a given.

Don't include me in your "we" though when you demand first-person-combat. I can't stand it.

Does the whole concept of how it works bother you or just the perspective, because if they make it like TES you could always go into 3rd person and use the same combat mechanics.

As long as I can use 3rd person, I'm fine. However, I don't see how TES combat could hold my interest in an MMO environment. It needs to offer a lot more than "mash the button until it's dead".

I think it could. Skyrim may have made things a bit too easy, but I think with a well-done version of the TES combat system, changing attacks and using different things could be done well. Add in a few extra types of special melee moves like those which were in Oblivion (Like the spinning attack, even though it was irritating to try and pull off, just fix that part), add breakable weapons again, balance things out a little and add more situations where using a particular attack or item would be particularly useful. People would just have to use plenty of hotkeys.

The Problem is: this alone isn't enough anymore. Look at WoW today. When you want to attract the wow crowd you can't just make a copy of wow classic. You need to make a copy of the game today and add some really interesting features. The very best try was rift(in my eyes). It's the only mmo who comes close to what a good mmo needs in our days. The only problem is, that they have no big name like blizzard.

The other example is sw:tor. It's even simpler than wow. Also uglier(in terms of art direction), full of boring quests(the type wow had at release), boring flashpoints(unpolished, full with boring trash mobs, repetitive and boring boss fights) and stoneage gameplay. Even Daoc hat more interesting classes and skills to offer and thats why even the lightsabers weren't able to help them out of this.

So the biggest mistake a company in our days can make is to believe that simpler = better. Don't try to make a simple game like wow even more simple. Thats what blizzard trys since cataclysm, too. And the only thing they get are more and more leaving customers. In fact you should go back to blizzards old virtues.

Three very easy things, every mmo creator should not forget:
1. "Easy to learn, hard to master!",
2. "Polishing until it shines like the sun!".
3. "Its better to bring a fresh and good idea of someone else to perfection than to have your own ideas!"

The problem many mmo creators have is that they try this but fail at the end because they betray this virtues. For example because they run out of money or because its too hard to make or whatever. And thats the reason why so many fail to copy wow. Also think about the creation of wow. Yes, blizzard copied already existing ideas. But compare the market 8 years ago to the market today. We had about 2-3 big mmos. Everquest, Daoc, Ultima Online. And only a hand full of smaller ones. Blizzard copied their ideas and made something really big. What SW:ToR made: they copied the same ideas, but 8 years later, and brought it to an already oversatisfied market but also failed to follow the three virtues. If you want to be successfull you have to make it better. Dont just make exactly the same thing as dozens of developers did since wow did it.

You have to understand what blizzard did. It isnt enough to just copy the same things which blizzard copied. Take a look at your features and think about where to look, and not just look at stoneage games like everquest/daoc and think they are the nonplus ultra source of everything.

Combat:
pseudo-turn-based-mmo-combat(like wow) is getting more and more old. Look some other combat approaches. God of War, Witcher2, Tera and even Skyrim. This is the direction in which you should look.

Character Development:
just take a look at skyrim(completly open character development), eve online(learning while offline), morrowind or champions online(movement modifiers instead of/additionally to mounts, like levitation, fast run), Diablo 3(unlockable skills and skillmodification, depending on level, skill level or something similar)

Gameplay:
Tera(pseudo-physics for magic and arrows), rift(class variation(if you want hard-coded classes at all)), wow - wrath of the lich king(synergies in talent trees(without talent trees) for a better theory crafting experience)

Gameworld:
UO(Interactivity), Skyrim(Open World aspects, size, borderless exploration).

PVP:
Eve Online(PvP needs a meaning, like defending or conquering player-property), DaoC(large scale battles)

Itemization:
Diablo 2(still the best if done right, nobody likes the paranoia-balanced item system of diablo 3), skyrim(for items found by exploration), rift(artifacts all over the world).

And so on. Just think in this way. Not in the way of sw:tor which was a 60% copy of wow - burning crusade. It doesn't get better just because you try to make what blizzard but did with a blizzard game.

Been innovative does not mean automatic success, but NOT been innovative means automatic failure.

Totally incorrect

CoD never innovates and is a giant success

Innovation doesn't always mean success ... But being innovative is better than being a copycat.
Let's look at Skyrim. It's very different to its predecessors, and it paid off. Big time.

Not to belittle Skyrim's success, but never underestimate the power of marketing.

Ah the only MMO to date that I've given a second glance. I'm glad they mae it so easy/free to get into beta.

That is the talk of the ignorant and those who lack foresight. You can do better than that.

List of companies that lost their market due to lack of innovation:
1. Nokia
2. Big record company still trying to push $30-$50 albums down your throat
3. American car industry

And many more.

Being innovative doesn't guarantee success but it helps.

There is a difference between a lack of innovation and a lack of adaptation.

If World of Warcraft stayed the same game that it was at launch and never moved with the times, it would not be the success it is today. But it has grown to be a complex game with many options because of it's ability to incorporate foreign game elements as game choices as well.

I'm not actually sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me. If you are referring companies/industry I have listed as been unable to adapt to the changing economic and their demographic's needs, well, the heart of the problem is their inability to retain their leadership position though innovation and better technology/R&D.

But you are correct that WOW continues to innovate, improve and polish itself in order to retain it's position as market leader.

That's because it wasn't really an agreement or disagreement, but a differentiation on perspective. In my opinion, World of Warcraft doesn't innovate a damn thing. But I give them credit on being solid and reliable, highly polished and it's ability to add other game's ideas as well.

Bump

you realize the american car companies are actually number one again right? good example...

LOL