Firstly, this is probably sailing the ship in murky waters with lots of rocky shoals, but I'm hoping BGSF is mature enough to discuss this as I think it is.

Before we dive in, this IS NOT about the religion itself, so leave that discussion outside the door.So, one thing that confuses me about Jews is how exactly does the culture work? It sounds like a dumb question, but I never fully understood how some people who are even Atheists still identify as Jews. I mean, it feels like a sort of society within society thing where being Jewish is almost an ethnicity as opposed to being a religious faith. I mean, to my knowledge, you don't often see this sort of thing like Middle Easterners identifying as Muslims instead or various groups identifying as Christian instead. To reiterate, my curiosity on this IS NOT about the faith itself but more about the social conventions and culture of the people itself and a desire to understand this little society within broader society, or if there are Jews/people that group up around or are familiar with Judaism here, that would help too since it's first hand experience.

Note: If the moderators feel this thread is being derailed into something racist or religion bashing by other users, I'll understand. I'm trying this thread in hopes of an intellectual discussion rather than a religion/race bashing. I have a little faith that BGSF is has a bit more of a modicum of civility than most of the internet, I just hope this trust isn't misplaced.

In the US, "Jewish" can be an ethnicity somewhat separate from the religion (which anyone regardless of background can be or convert to). The predominately Ashkenazi Jews that immigrated to the US from mostly Poland and Russia (although there were a smattering from other countries) had a distinct culture that was the hallmark of any European immigrants groups at the time (like the Irish, Italians, Poles, etc...). Language (Yiddish), food, music, folk traditions etc... Of course religion was the lynch pin that held the people together as a group, but within that binding together an ethnicity was forged.

Ah, so it was basically forged as solely as a sort of communal thing? I was under the impression it was an ethnicity due to the belief in the Jewish faith of being God's chosen people. But it would make more sense your way, since it encourages a more modern connection. But what about in Germany during the 20s-30s? Were they as communal as they are here in the US? I'm sure secularism was as widespread then too. I could see the Holocaust knitting a stronger bond of the peoples, but I'm curious to learn its roots, which seems very hard (For me to pinpoint at least) when Jews as a collective of religious people evolved into more than a faith, but a cultural and ethnic identity.

I've always understood a Jew to be someone descended from Isaac the same as an Arab is descended from Ishmael.

Jews have Judaism as their main religion & Arabs have Islam. Jews gave birth to Jesus (though most do not accept him as an important person even though Christianity has reach every nation and tongue upon the planet) and the Arabs gave birth to Mohammed.

I think you're kind of missing the question of my topic. It's more about when did Jews cease to solely be about the faith and become more an ethnicity and community based on a common culture. You don't particularly find that too often in other faiths save for maybe small villages/towns. I mean, how often do you see a Christian go 'Well, I'm Christian, but I'm an Atheist'. It's all intriguing to me because it's so unique an anomaly in cultures in my opinion.

The Jews have always seen themselves as a people, not just a religious community. Thousands of years of persecution have only reinforced this notion.

Yeah, I think it got more to do with traditions rather than faith. Atheists wouldn't call themselves christians though, but I guess they see some pride in being a jew. A badge of honor or something. But it's just me guessing, I barely have any insight in the jewish culture.

Jewish cuisine interests me.

But Jewish is also an ethnicity (ethnoreligious groups actually), and they have their own culture and traditions that many of them take pride in. They've had a pretty difficult time throughout history, so it's understandable why they're so into it; besides, it's pretty interesting.

Also, Hava Nagila is a cool song.

Yep, I seem to remember you're jewish if you belong to the religion (like converts) and/or if your mum's jewish.

Yeah, in order to be included into the covenant community, your mother must be Jewish. If your mother was Jewish, it doesn't matter what religion you hold to or don't hold to, you will always be a part of the Jewish community.

When did that happen predominantly? Well probably sometime after the Roman destruction of the state of Israel. But the Old Testament and New Testament testify to the fact that many who thought they were Jews in the faith didn't actually get the premise of their faith and lived as cultural Jews, thinking they were God's people simply because they were descended from Abraham and Isaac. The "cultural" Jew has always existed, but I think it's much more wide spread now after the 1st century.

Jews in Western Europe were more assimilated culturally to the country they lived in (be it Holland, France or Germany). German Jews were the first to arrive in the US in the early to mid 1800s and they pretty quickly assimilated here coming from a more Western European tradition. The Eastern European Jews that came from the late 1800s on were a bit of an embarrassment to them at first since they seemed less "cultured", more ethnic and more Orthodox than they were.

I saw a series on PBS about the Jews in America and the contributions they've made to the country. Learned quite a bit from that show (such as the differences in the Jews from the various European regions).

I wonder if this has anything to do with Clint and I calling one another Jews.

The Jewish religion requires certain social customs that are different than the other two major religions. Kosher food and the Sabbath being on Saturday for example. Jewish people tended to congregate together as it was easier for them to observe their customs. Back in the day, the Kosher butcher or deli/restaurant had to be down the street, as refrigeration was a recent invention and there were no cars. Up until the we had some more technology, there were Jewish enclaves in most cities. Not much different than how immigrants from say Italy or Ireland or Norway or anywhere else would group together for the first generation or so.

For a variety of reasons both internal and external, the Jewish people tended to maintain their enclaves rather than assimilate into the general population as most immigrants do. Of course, we have cars and fridges and for the most part less religious persecution now, so the need to live near each other has diminished somewhat. However the society within a society still exists just as it does in any cohesive group that follows slightly different norms of habit and ritual.

As someone with Jewish relatives, I can say that this is pretty much it.

Though I don't think the culture that the OP refers to is anything modern, it is quite old. Their culture focuses on helping each other, devotion to family as much or more than your own religion. Not to sound racist or anything, but this is why many of those who are part of the Jewish community are really successful in life in many forms of business, because even as the modern age continues to grow, in business there is no more important factor for success then family dedicated to each other and their drive for success. Sure not everybody can succeed, but they still stick together. When your culture has repeatedly been persecuted and hunted by others ever since they have been recording history, you sort of get that bonding of a "brotherhood of adversity". Somehow they have figured a way to survive and flourish, and therefore it is in this drive to do so that they find success in other forms of life and when they haven't been persecuted and hunted, they often achieve great heights in society at a significantly higher rate per population than that of other cultures.

I'm not Jewish(although, who knows since I don't know anything beyond my grandparents) But anyways, the two replies above me is what I thought and concluded after reading the history of the Jews in other countries. The Jewish people is one of the most persecuted people in history, and as time passed by it no longer became a survival of a faith but rather a people.

I once saw this obscure movie, forgot the name. It was a Jewish story. The protagonist was in this Jewish university and when he was asked by the Jewish principal if he was Jewish, the protagonist said no. The principal replied: "If you are not a Jew, then what are you?"

This gives an interesting and profound insight into what is to be a Jew. In this story, to be a Jew goes beyond religion, culture: it's about your self.

Christian culture does exist. You can find in places like Ireland where some people will identify themselves as atheist, but culturally Catholic.

Is a Jew and an Israelite the same thing? Does an Israelite mean you are a descendant of Israel (Jacob) or does it just mean you are a citizen of the country of Israel regardless of ancestry?

There's some sixy Jewish actors out there. Andrew Garfield, James Franco, Joseph Gordon-Levitt, Sasha Roiz... That's all I really know.

If your mother isn't Jewish, then you aren't Jewish according to... Jews.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Serious_Man

Right, I know about that. Some Jews are very racially extreme like the Nazis were. How ironic.

I don't know. The movie was serious and I don't recall the movie being a dark comedy type of movie. I could be wrong though. Maybe if I see this movie I could remember some scenes. Its been a long time since I saw it on tv.

I think Israelites should be their nationality and Jew should remain a religion as anyone can convert to Judaism but only the Israelites really call themselves Jews.

I have to say that from my experience, the Orthodox Jews are some of the most racist and prejudice people I've ever encountered...if you're not 1 of them then they feel that you're a lesser being or something.