I don't see that as any more hypocritical than the belief that Nords should rule 'their' land when they aren't the native population anyways, the Snow Elves were.

The only thing about Elisif which I didn't really like was how she willingly bent the knee to Ulfric when he took over Solitude. Despite her weaknesses, vulnerability, inexperience and dependence on Tullius I'd expected more from her as a human being. It wasn't like execution was the alternative, just sitting at a merry table feasting with Balgruuf, Ingrod and other good people (although that Falkreath Jarl is a jerk). Perhaps it was to highlight that Ulfric, just like the Empire, was capable of using puppet Jarls for his own ends.

None of Tamriel was native land for any human race. They all came over from Atmora.

And I just remembered something: Baalgruf lets Heimskr give sermons on Talos on his door step. He doesn't seem to follow the White Gold Concordant either.

The Nedes may have already been indiginous to Cyrodiil though. It's not proven either way whether they were just Atmorans or their own seperate, already native race.

And yep, Balgruuf does do that with no Imperial Consequences even though he does side with them when pressed.

How is that relevant at all? We're talking about her enforcing a law in public which she circumvents at someone else's expense on the sly. Not who should rule over Skyrim, which is a far more esoteric question. That's like saying it's hypocritical for the imperials to want to rule because they should have remained slaves of the Ayleids.

Anyway according to the Nords, they were breathed out by Kyne at the Throat of the World. Probably all of them were descendants of the Ehlnofey and there is no such thing as an indigenous race of Tamriel.

Funny story the Nords loyal to the Empire still worship Talos they just do so quitely, the stormcloaks aid the Thalmor in hunting Talos worshippers by being public about it.

Which goes to show that Elisif isn't the only hypocrite. But she takes it further by involving a stranger in her own personal conundrum.

Torygg shares in the hypocrisy, of course. If Sybille is right and he admired Ulfric's beliefs, he could have done something about it and prevented the slaughter of innocent people on his soil. If we had a choice of Talos shrines, I would have taken his horn to the one near Helgen which is soaked with the blood of Talos worshippers. It seems more fitting.

"Neutrality aids the oppressors." -Elie Wiesel

No it proves the Empire doesn't wish to enforce the treaty Rikke, Tullius's right hand says a prayer to Talos right in front of him and his only responce is, "what was that?" Until Ulfric started making waves the Empire made no effort to enforce the treaty at all. If Sybille is right then Ulfric just wants power for himself because she believed Torygg may have sided with Ulfric if he had simply asked.

The greatest ally in The Dominion's fight against the worship of Talos is Ulfric Stormcloak.

Sounds like Thalmor propaganda to me, blaming the ones who resist.

Everyone resists, the Imperial Loyalists just do it quitely. The stormcloaks paint "come arrest me" on there back. Alvor recalls that until Ulfric started attracting attention everyone just maintained a shrine in there homes and worshiped in private.

Yeah, yeah, we've all heard what Alvor thinks. He must have a good memory since the Thalmor were already active in Skyrim as of the Markarth Incident.

The imperials don't resist quietly. They don't interfere, but that is not the same thing.

Elisif isn't he only hypocrite. All the Jarls are supposed to be flawed. One even killed a bunch of Reachmen for wanting independence from the Empire and freedom to worship what gods they wanted, and then went and started a war for the exact same reasons...

Everyone in Skyrim is a hypocrite. A terrible province!

Worshiping Talos in secret is resisting the difference is its doing it intelligently rather then making yourself a target. The offical ban will end in a few years anyway when the Dominion and The Empire go to war again. Ulfric's refusal to back down during the Markath Incident is what brought down the Thalmor. Not interfering is also resisting the Jarls are suppose to help enforce the ban on the worship of Talos but they don't. That Judicator Ondolema in Marakath isn't allowed to conduct his investigations so he's forced to hire mercenaries to break into peoples houses and even after finding evidence Ogmund remains free.

The Stormcloaks just make themselves targets for the Thalmor.

The WGC is not "intelligent." It's cowardly. The redguard proved it was unnecessary, and by the time Skyrim is also leaving the empire, it's time to realize that you made a bad deal and start fighting the real enemy instead of your own people.

That's not hypocritical. Ulfric wants the Nords to rule Skyrim. He fought for that in Markarth, and that's what his rebellion is about. It's perfectly consistent. It is the empire and their lackeys who make slimy deals and keep them only when it's convenient.

Last I checked the Dominion was still around, after five years of fighting Hammerfell did manage to drive out the thalmor but was left a devastated nation in the process. Not necessarily a victory. Most of the Jarls support the empire probably why Ulfric refuses the moot he'd lose.
Yet Ulfric attacks the Empire and kills his fellow Nords rather trying to start up the great war again. The dominion is the real enemy something Ulfric ignores. Skyrim would have been better served ifhe built an army to fight the dominion instead of his fellow natives of skyrim.

Ulfric can't fght the Thalmor until the Empire gets, or is pushed, out of the way. The Empire has a treaty with the Dominion, the Thalmor are in Skyrim with Imperial backing and support. If he declared war on the Thalmor directly while Skyrim is still under Imperial rule, it would still make him a traitor and a criminal as far as the Empire is concerned. They would be forced to go to war with him to uphold the treaty, or else risk open war with the Thalmor - something they are clearly not ready or willing to do.

This is not hard to understand, altho it might as well be quantum physics based on how often it comes up. If someone is in my house beating up my family and you are standing in the doorway refusing to let me by and threatening to beat on me if I try to get past you to stop it, I cannot deal with the person who is assaulting my family until YOU GET OUT OF THE WAY. If you don't do it voluntarily, I will have to fight you first. The Empire and its treaty with the Dominion make it impossible to fight the Thalmor without becoming an enemy of the Empire anyway. The Empire is standing like a shield between the Dominion and any Imperial subject who wants to take them on directly.

Seceding from the Empire negates that problem because it means Skyrim is no longer bound by the treaty and can deal with the Thalmor as she sees fit, and the Dominion can't demand that the Empire put a stop to it because the Empire doesn't rule Skyrim any more.

The redguard are free to worship who they please, I call that a victory.

The empire is in power, and colluding with the Thalmor in Skyrim. He is fighting them both. Yet he does say, after a Stormcloak victory, that the elves are the real threat. But he can't fight them and not the imperials when the empire is hosting the Thalmor in Solitude and Markarth.

We don't know the terms of the treaty with Hammerfell, and Talos was never big there to begin with. They objected to losing southern potions of the country which they ended up destroying in the process of driving the Dominion out. So again not necessarily a victory.

Yet when Ulfric takes power the Thalmor remain in Solitude. Ulfric managed to rally a sizable army behind him, if he had put that effort into rebuilding the Imperial legions then they may have been ready for war with the Dominion. But no instead he builds the army names them after himself in a grand show of megalomaniac and kills the High King without even talking to him about it. Anyone who doesn't kiss Ulfric's boot gets kicked he says he's all about freedom for Skyrim but he won't accept Balgruuf's neutrality. (Tullius does).


One problem you get by the first guy and the ones inside kill you because you can't win without help. Ulfric struggles when fighting half of skyrim. How is he suppose to face the Dominion? The whole of the Great War was a defensive struggle on the part of The Empire at no point did they manage to bring the fight to the Dominion's land. So how is Ulfric suppose to do anything to the Dominion after killing hundreds of his own people in the Civil War? Skyrim won't be ready to fight another war so soon after Ulfric's occupation of the half still loyal to the Empire. So how long until Ulfric brings the fight to the Dominion ten years? twenty years? Or will he just wait until The Dominion invades on its terms.

Ulfric's civil war only weakens the Empire and Skyrim, had he put forth his time and effort into rebuilding the Imperial Legions that were lost keeping the Dominion from ever reaching Skyrim in the Great War then maybe the Empire would be in a position to fight the Dominion on its terms.

Cyrodiil was destroyed and yet the justiciars are free to operate there. That's better?

Entirely a game mechanic. Same reason why the Penitus Oculatus remains in Dragonbridge and you get a bounty if the Stormcloak guards see you attack them- because they need to be there to be available for quests.

Have you been around for any of the 296,784 threads on this subject? I get tired of repeating myself. *reads off list* Ulfric did speak out about independence- at the moot. And the Stormcloaks were perjoratively called that name by their enemies and took it as a badge of honor, sort of like yankee doodle. Balgruuf is not neutral- he's imperial.

Skyrim was keeping Thalmor out of Skyrim. It was Nord legions who saved Mede's ass after he lost the Imperial City, losing their own territory to the Forsworn because of it. I don't see the empire being able to invade, either, but that is all moot as long as the empire is permitting Thalmor to operate in Skyrim anyway. With friends like that...

This is all off topic.

Why would he ask for freedom to worship from the Jarl if the treaty wasn't enforced up until then? He would have already had the freedom to worship Talos.

Their greatest ally is the Imperial Legion, under orders to protect the Imperial City from the Thalmor at any cost, including Skyrim's religious freedom.

You can't look at the events seperatly though. The Markarth agreement between Torygg and Ulfric, was that if Ulfric helped Torygg to overthrow the Forsaken at Markarth he and his people would be allowed free worship of Talos. Then Torygg makes a nation wide ban on the worship of Talos. Ulfric broods over this before making his choice to a right to rule in a duel which is Nord tradition. Ulfric won he used the weapons open to him and killed the High King and should be rightful ruler to Skyrim according to the laws of the Nords. When you get to listen to the whole story about the duel you will realize he did not shout Torygg appart he used his voice to disarm him and cripple him then chopped off his head with a sword, Torygg was a nord as well and had the same power yet it was Ulfric who is willing to use it.

The Empire who believes in succsession sought to outlaw Ulfric and all his followers thinking he had commited a crime. Ulfric by right as ancient Nord laws go is High King. The Empire and Elisif deny him this right because they want revenge over what he did which proves they are puppets to the Thalmor.

The Thlmor journal you find in the embassey states the Dominion is pleased with the civil war and what Ulfric has done, but the Stormcloaks must not win the civil war at all costs. Which to me means they fear Ulfric and his Stormcloaks far more than the Empire.

As for Jarl Elisif she is to quick to bend knee to Ulfric at the end which means she is just wanting to keep her station and comforts. She is a weak ruler who in a time of war should be removed for someone more capable. If she had stepped down as Jarl it would of at least showed she fought for what she beleived in. If she is secretly on Ulfric's side then why fight him and why not just ask for help to overthrow the Empire in her city ?

As for Whiterun the Jarl there says he is not on anyones side but Whiteruns which is to be commended he likes Ulfric but he hopes he is not forced to pick sides. This I can sympathize with and it was kind of heartbreaking to have to lay siege to his city and kill everyone the screams of the dying being carried away with smoke and fire, endless poetry of death and the . ..... ahem.. I got carried away.

For me at least the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion are one of the same and need to be wipped out, you do not see any Thalmor in Windhelm or Dawnstar yet you see them in Makarth and their sycophant followers (Empire) in Solitude.

I have more repsect for Tullis than I do for Elisif as he when beaten refuses to give surrender to Ulfric when asked. General Tullis could of survived the conflict but he stood for what he believes in and it cost him his life. Elisif should of been the same yet she shows how weak a ruler she is and how easy she is to manipulate. I would say she is a Thalmor spy who wishes to remain in a position of power to be able to give the Aldmeri Dominion information on Ulfric.

Ulfric is not making a grasp for power he even says he wants a Moot to vote who should be High King, but with his people as Jarls its a forgone conclusion as to who will win the vote. But still there is that possibility that he may not win. Ulfric when you talk to him is filled with remorse over the civil war he never wanted it, but Torygg forced his hand with the nation wide ban on free Talos worship.

Torygg and Elisif went back on their promise to the people of Skyrim to keep their own thrones they could of united Skyrim and forced the Empire and Thalmor allies out yet they chose this civil war and when they loose it they do not have the stomach to step down from their thrones but instead bend their knees to Ulfric.

Fixed a few things.

Something about the Hammerfell war I like to bring up is that while the Redguards did drive the Thalmor out of their land, their war is not the same as the one the Empire knows will come, either on their terms or on the Dominions.
Hammerfell fought a war of resistance, trying to keep what they had. The Empire on the other hand is preparing for a war of annahilation, to destroy the Dominion. From a military standpoint these are two completely different things. To begin a war of annahilation before you are ready, even if you are ready for a war of resistance, is likely to end in disaster since it puts much risk on the armies and supplies. While this doesn't necessarily mean the Empire is the right choice, I'd say it gives an explanation as for why they still keep up the WGC, even after they saw that Hammerfell could resist an invasion.

except Torygg had nothing to do with Markarth. He might not even haven been born then, considering he's young and the Markarth Incidence was 25 years ago.

The deal was made between Ulfric and Igmund (or possibly Igmund's father, according to the stable guy outside Markarth - I think it's a mistake though, since Igmund himself says his father was killed during the Forsworn uprising).


I might have misunderstood you here, but are you suggesting that Elisif secretly sides with Ulfric? I can assure you she doesn't. She hates him after him killing her husband. She continues to hate him after swearing fealty to him, and complains about how there's no justice in the world now that he's about to become High King, and since she says this to the PC, whom she knows helped Ulfric win the war and likely is a good friend of his, she has no reason to keep quiet about wanting the Empire thrown out of Skyrim, if that had been the case.