Me and my wife posses that technology...built 2 so far..

So if I had a tractor in Fallout and I gave it an AI personality.. Would it be wrong to make it work without paying it?

Even the Rail Road brought up such a question. Are all machines "human" is it wrong to use them?

Synth are "people" because they look like us. People have a thing for things that look like us. It makes us feel better to interact with a machine that looks human than it does to work Robbie the Robot.

To say enslaving a flesh an blood human is just as bad as enslaving an a machine programmed to mimic us is crazy IMO.

Gen 3s are machines that can feel genuine emotion. If a gen 3 *feels* like a slave, then a slave it is.

That's the difference (IMO) between a Gen 3 and a more commonplace robot like Codsworth. Cod is just "apeing" emotional responses, wheras a Gen 3 like Danse or Sturges has REAL feelings.

A gen 3 is closer to a clone, than a robot.

If I program it not to feel, what is it then?

Hahaha, good one

Why would program it to feel oppressed in the first place?

If the AI had the ability to think for itself... yes.

Personality matrixcies like those in the Sink, which are totally unable to act outside their programming, no.

Also, Gen 3 synths ARE flesh and blood, literally. they are organic constructs more on par with replicants from Blade Runner then actual machines.

It seems you miss the entire point of how fiction can be used to explore the human condition.

Because comparing the two does the exact opposite of what you describe.


When fictional stories mirror our own history, it creates a language for the topic to be discussed in ways that it normally wouldn't be. Fiction, especially science fiction, has always been a mirror of our own societys. Fiction uses imaginary ideas (like synths) to explore and understand how humans treat other humans in real life.


You say... "Humans are kidnapped, abused, dehumanized, and sold to other people."

Yes, and synths are treated exactly the same way. It's called a metaphor, used to create a theme and explore ideas of human culture.


Regardless of what a synth is or how you feel about them in a video game, the story was written by humans, about humans, for humans.

The comparison draws a direct correlation to our history for a reason.

Well, if you gave the tractor the ability to think, feel, and make decisions for itself... you've just made an intelligent tractor that deserves the right of self-determination. Same with robots that eventually achieve self-awareness, like John Henry Eden or Skynet (whyyy did they have to call it Skynet), or even arguably Curie.

That's not how it works.

Good question. It makes no damned sense that they even can "think" for themselves. The Institute could end it all easily but for some reason they don't .

I don't get the impression that they even can think for themselves. They seem to just go along with what we tell them to do. If they do think for themselves it isn't very complex thinking. It isn't until the Rail Road gives them a personality that they actually have a human like personality but then again that could just be me.

Sure they might be flesh and blood but I can turn on that machine and turn out a thousand of them in a day and give them the same personality like the Lucy Liu episode of Futurama. But why would I even given them a personality or allow them to think at all.

Just give them the same program as all the other tin cans out there.

You don't.

In other news, we no longer program AI with specific processes. That theory failed. Instead, we metaprogram them to develop their own processes by churning through a huge mass of data and trying different algorithms at random until it finds one that matches the right answer "most" of the time. Big Data.

Just some basic foundational information you need to know before you can argue intelligently about AI ethics...

Very well said

I know. I was simply trying to say it's not a matter of programming. They achieved sentience by themselves they weren't programmed to be that way or at least I hope not.

Its outright stated they can. that was part of the point of the synth program, to create machines that can think for themselves and adapt to situations placed in front of them so they could serve as a better workforce then the crude Mr Handy and Protectron bots.

the fact that so many synths which to escape, when The Institute never programmed them with such a desire, is proof that they do think for themselves.

Arguably, you can conceive one in a laboratory, teach logic to them, induce at least semi predefined memories by setting every condition of their existance (Think the Truman show meets Twins, done purely on a scientific level), all of which will shape said personality.
We are a step away from editing human DNA, and have done so with animals already. This would be more of an anologue way of building and programming a person.


I posit that if you find yourself in a setting where a faction makes a synthetic brain that works so flawlessly, that it is indifferent from the human brain, it would need to mean that the human brain itself was solved. This, in a world where there is a place called the Memory Den, where our human PC can use the facilities.


Another way to look at it is that we are all conditioned as people now. To live within certain parameters. Societal norms. Religious dictates. The idea of culture at all would seem that we have indeed reprogrammed, and continue to reprogram ourselves.

Which gets us into the question of why is the Institutes allowing them to escape? Why do they need to be that advanced?

They could put in a program to stop them from wanting to escape. They don't put in proximity devices to keep them in assigned areas and if they leave they get blown up or something. Many many ways to keep any Synth from ever escaping. We know the Institute can turn them out like crazy and they don't care about them. So stopping them should be easy even if you have to blow them up.

Hell they could put a restriction on their teleporter to lock them out.

I know that is a side argument but still it is a big plot hole with the whole Synth story line.

But in the end they are machines that can be made by the dozen or more. Nothing special.

Synths are human in everyway imo. If you listen to gen 3 Synths talk in Fallout 4 you can tell they hate being with the Insititute but are afraid to show free will because it will lead to them having their memories taken away( pretty much killing them) .

Yes we are "machines" ourselves I get it. But you can't just flip on machine and make a thousand of me in a day and then give them all the same memories and personality like you can with a Synth.

It isn't so easy to just reprogram a human as you can a Synth.

We could also get in to the argument of animals and how humans treat them. They think, they feel and so on. Yet we "enslave them" and people make the case that that is wrong.

So where's the line? The machines in Old World Blues are people? Brahmin are people? Gen 1's are people? What about Mole Rats don't tell me they are people too?

What I wish would be explained:

In 2016 (Happy New Year, by the way, and I got that right the first time), we are already past the point of actually knowing - much less being able to directly control - the exact parameters of AI algorithms. In fact, accepting that we can not directly control these algorithms is the only reason why we've made advances in AI in the last decade. We went from slamming our heads against simulating insect intelligence to self-driving cars within a decade precisely by relinquishing control over the algorithms.

This is only one direction in which the "they're just robots!" argument fails miserably.

The other major direction is to consider that we now have working neural nets to control (albeit not perfectly) prosthetic limbs. We'll be working on neural nets to regulate emotional "abnormalities" soon after that (for ex: schizophrenia).

Honestly, I really encourage everyone to learn about this stuff, but realize that very smart people spend their entire lives thinking about this problem and have not yet solved it. You have to suspect that you're missing something important, right?

What about Codsworth, Curie, the female handy in Diamond City, Gen 3 Synths and hell even ED-E from NV who all clearly show they can think outside their programming?

They've got synths operating on the surface as humans impostors, as well as Coursers, so synths need to have a certain amount of freedom and independence to accomplish their goals. Not to mention the recall codes, and memory erasure. I'd say the Synth Retention Bureau also helps to, uh, retain synths already in the Institute's possession in addition to retrieving escaped synths. It's actually unclear how many synths escape compared to how many the Institute uses.

As for the question about whether lesser robots deserve the right of self-determination, don't just think about Protectrons and Gen 1s (although Gen 1s do seem somewhat capable of abstract thought) - think about, ah, SetoKaiba beat me to it. Codsworth, Curie, etc.

That's gameplay mechanic, just to show you how it's done. It would be pretty boring if you have to wait like an hour in real time just to see them making a synth or only happen within specific time frame then people wouldn't be able to see it.

Just machines to me.

I care more for clones than I do machines programmed to think and do what we want them to do. Above close would be animals.

Something like:

Humans

Ghouls/Intelligent Super Mutants.

Animals such as dogs.

Clones

Synths

Normal Robots tied with bugs and rats.

If a Synth can plot to rebel against its creators without the help of a virus or being programmed to rebel, then it is self-aware and has self-preservation which are indicators for sentience. Self-aware because they no longer want to be tools and self-preservation because rebelling against their characters without a plan is just suicide.

Why is the Institute doing something stupid like creating lots of Gen-3 Synths? Gen-3 Synths are only useful for infiltration. The amount of Gen-3 Synths around is inconsistent with the amount of infiltrations needed. It almost seems like the Institute wants to replace humans with Synths. If you need an obedient slave race, then Gen-2 Synths are sufficient and there is no risk of rebellion.