[Bonnie Clyde]

Since we can test it now, can we start production of the patch mod now? (at least to see if it works)

Yes please! This is a huge issue for everyone who uses mods, since 1.5 does horrible, horrible things to mods.

Wait... in that case, wouldn't updating the GECK to 1.5 prevent issues?

How could you update just the GECK? Is that even possible?

[Tha King o Geekz]

Do these issues happen only for new mods created by authors using the 1.5 patch ?

or if im using a mod that was created 3 months ago and i patch to 1.5, then will that mod have the issues described by Quarn ?

[Lexy Dick]

or if im using a mod that was created 3 months ago and i patch to 1.5, then will that mod have the issues described by Quarn ?

THIS

How could you update just the GECK? Is that even possible?

Um... yes? http://fallout.gamesas.com/eng/downloads/geck.html

[Rachel Tyson]

THIS

It should, shouldn't it?

Um... yes? http://fallout.gamesas.com/eng/downloads/geck.html

Durr, thanks. I am the dumb.

[chloe hampson]

Do these issues happen only for new mods created by authors using the 1.5 patch ?

or if im using a mod that was created 3 months ago and i patch to 1.5, then will that mod have the issues described by Quarn ?

It afflicts all ESP mods no matter when they where created.

[Lakyn Ellery]

It afflicts all ESP mods no matter when they where created.

You're the uber-genius... what do we do now? the way things sound. Broken Steel will crash without 1.5...

[lucile davignon]

Nah, in all likeness, broken steel will use the new command only ONCE.
You just need to wait for a kind soul to open it in geck and comment that line and then upload it. Problem solved.

[sw1ss]

You're the uber-genius... what do we do now? the way things sound. Broken Steel will crash without 1.5...

Nah it won't crash (99% sure, after all I don't have Broken Steel yet)... If you're not using v1.5 with Broken Steel the only thing that will happen is the entire script that contains the new command won't function at all, that command can simply be removed so the script can run.

[Nathan Maughan]

There's another way to handle this whole thing.

TGBlank had mentioned the mechanics behind it, and I had been talking with Elminster about it, and I tested what he made and followed his directions pretty much.

He's now made a new version of FO3edit that adds in the needed ONAM records for navmeshes whenever you save an .esm. And then, he walked me through a process where a single .esp is turned into a co-dependent .esm/esp pair.

From what I can tell, when you do this process to your .esp, all of the weirdness caused by both 1.4 not handling navmeshes in .esps right, plus 1.5 making non-persistant-ref items vanish, is gone. Everything that I knew to test worked perfectly in-game.

What I tested was:

- - - 1.5 issue: Disappearing statics problem if you add a static. With my .esp/esm pairing combo, I unset as persistant refs the megaton campsite in my mod, and the items would not disappear on me after i left and then fast-traveled back. Checked several times.

- - - 1.4 - 1.5 issue: Disappearing navmesh in-game for player-added cells. I verified that this problem does not exist when this esm/esp pairing is done. It positively exists in all lone .esps that try to do this.

- - - 1.5 issue (don't know about 1.4): Ignored navmesh for player-made .esms that attempt to replace a Fallout3.esm navmesh. Because of Fo3edit now automatically popping the ONAM records in where they are needed, this problem is overcome.

- - - 1.5 issue: white skin on mod-added NPCs. Problem does not exist.

- - - It's not savegame compatible except by hex-editing the savegame file. But Eliminster said that Timeslip could maybe make a feature to FOMM to sorta do this on demand to savegames, creating this sort of compatibility for specific savegames.


There's a going back-and-forth process for creating the .esm/esp pair. I can't really type it all out right now. It belongs in a tutorial. Basically, the process causes your single .esp to be split into two. it becomes an esm that contains the things you added to the game as brand-new, and an .esp that contains stuff that you are changing that was already in the game. And, importantly, the .esp has the .esm set as a master. The process uses both the GECK and FO3edit to make it happen, going back and forth a couple times.

If 1.5 doesn't get these things fixed on its own, for some of us, this will be the way to proceed. In addition to that, understand, it FIXES the whole player-added navmesh problem. You will simply not be making a successful level that the AI can be expected to navigate repeatedly, in either 1.0 or 1.5 of Fallout3, without using an .esm.

Elminster is going to put up the version of FO3edit that handles the ONAM adds properly soon. And someone should do a tutorial on this thing. I'm not an expert at it, I've only been walked through it, once, I'ma newb at it.

[Miragel Ginza]

Nah, in all likeness, broken steel will use the new command only ONCE.
You just need to wait for a kind soul to open it in geck and comment that line and then upload it. Problem solved.

BUT that command is very important. I don't want to lose that realism. If I purify the water, I want it to be clear and unirradiated. If I FEV it, I want it to be glowing and deadly...

[Sxc-Mary]

I just sent a PM to Darkone on Nexus with a point to this thread and a suggestion that he consider news of this bug to be put on the front page of nexus.

I imagine it will make everyone's life easier if the word is put out to not patch to 1.5 until a solution is found.

[m Gardner]

BUT that command is very important. I don't want to lose that realism. If I purify the water, I want it to be clear and unirradiated. If I FEV it, I want it to be glowing and deadly...

It's either "You take the hit and run 1.5" or "you edit the script and take the immersion hit" until they fix the xbox huge issues with 1.5.

[Myles]

If I purify the water, I want it to be clear and unirradiated. If I FEV it, I want it to be glowing and deadly...

That will be easy enough to add in with a plugin if it can't be done without the latest patch. Don't worry so much, taking everything into account this is a relatively minor issue that should be easy to fix.

Cipscis

[Harinder Ghag]

That will be easy enough to add in with a plugin if it can't be done without the latest patch. Don't worry so much, taking everything into account this is a relatively minor issue that should be easy to fix.

Cipscis

So is that a "yes, I volunteer to make such a plugin/fix as soon as possible" I hear? :hubbahubba:

[Jinx Sykes]

I imagine it will make everyone's life easier if the word is put out to not patch to 1.5 until a solution is found.

There are people using 1.5 without trouble. That advice isn't really accurate to put forth as a global warning to all.

[Paula Rose]

Yeah as far as I see any modified cell reference in Fallout3.esm needs an ONAM override in your ESM or your changes won't appear (new placed objects don't need ONAM overrides), UF3P v1.1.0 was an ESM till I saw this issue and quickly went back to a esp and uploaded v1.1.1.

I'd like to make UF3P an esm again but there needs to be a way to automatically generate all the ONAM's, doing 1000+ ONAM's by hand = head explode :banghead:

I'll help if you like, although an automated method would be killer. In my [BORG].ESM, I have moved some Fallout3.ESM refs around and there are no ONAM's while the changes still take place. I'm testing with the water swapping right now with an XMarker as the parent thing (which is working BTW) and just experimented with the ONAM's as a separate experiment. I took a body of water and edited its rotation and position, made the file an ESM, and it works with no ONAM. ^__^ Maybe the ONAM's are only needed with 1.1+?

[Dj Matty P]

I'll help if you like, although an automated method would be killer. In my [BORG].ESM, I have moved some Fallout3.ESM refs around and there are no ONAM's while the changes still take place. I'm testing with the water swapping right now with an XMarker as the parent thing (which is working BTW) and just experimented with the ONAM's as a separate experiment. I took a body of water and edited its rotation and position, made the file an ESM, and it works with no ONAM. ^__^ Maybe the ONAM's are only needed with 1.1+?

In terms of navmesh ONAMs, it's already been done in FO3edit ... see my big post a few posts up.

[Stephanie I]

There are people using 1.5 without trouble. That advice isn't really accurate to put forth as a global warning to all.

FO3 Nexus is a modding site, a warning on it is VERY appropriate as this affects virtually ALL mods.

I'll help if you like, although an automated method would be killer. In my [BORG].ESM, I have moved some Fallout3.ESM refs around and there are no ONAM's while the changes still take place. I'm testing with the water swapping right now with an XMarker as the parent thing (which is working BTW) and just experimented with the ONAM's as a separate experiment. I took a body of water and edited its rotation and position, made the file an ESM, and it works with no ONAM. ^__^ Maybe the ONAM's are only needed with 1.1+?

Could be, I'll have to do some testing and see...

Edit: yes v1.0 needs ONAM's, any modified cell object needs an ONAM in an ESM otherwise the changes won't appear, adding in new cell objects won't need ONAM's.

[victoria johnstone]

There are people using 1.5 without trouble. That advice isn't really accurate to put forth as a global warning to all.

If people use mods that add (taken from Quarns first post)

- Non-Persistant creatures\NPC's placed by mods will cause the game to crash upon trying to save after visiting and leaving the area where they are in
- Non-Persistant objects (statics ect) placed by mods will vanish upon loading them the second time. If you changed an already existing object in Fallout3.esm then it will reset to the default position (state, as it was in Fallout3.esm) upon a second loading.
- Add new npcs - Skin color on new NPC's defaults to "white" no matter what


These are pretty significant issues especially the first one. What harm is it that a warning is put out that the patch may have issues for people that use mods ? . with the information people can decide among themselves whether to patch.
Many more people check nexus than this thread.

[Nikki Hype]

FO3 Nexus is a modding site, a warning on it is VERY appropriate as this affects virtually ALL mods.

But that's not exactly right in context. It cannot be critically affecting all mods because I'm running a pile of them and I'm mostly fine. MMM-Increased-Spawns, MMM-Zones-Respawn, Phalanx 0.96, fellout, greenerworld, Foes Reworked, and others.

The truth is that it depends on which mods someone has loaded. I feel like its overkill to make the claim be so broad as to say virtually all, and so on.

After I made a few changes to Phalanx, I stopped ALL crashing in my savegames - - my own mod was the only one causing crashes in my line-up. The one problem that persists is the skin color issue and I know what I can do to fix it in the future, assuming they don't (that one, they might really want to look at, if nothing else).

If any sort of advisory were made like that, I feel like it should reflect the fact. That fact being, some mods will cause crashes with it, some won't, and the user should decide what to do based upon that.

edit: 1.5 fixes more for me than it breaks. I would have been unappreciative if someone had "warned" me, saying, "do not update to 1.5, it's bad!!!!"

[JaNnatul Naimah]

But that's not exactly right in context. It cannot be critically affecting all mods because I'm running a pile of them and I'm mostly fine. MMM-Increased-Spawns, MMM-Zones-Respawn, Phalanx 0.96, fellout, greenerworld, Foes Reworked, and others.

The truth is that it depends on which mods someone has loaded. I feel like its overkill to make the claim be so broad as to say virtually all, and so on.

After I made a few changes to Phalanx, I stopped ALL crashing in my savegames - - my own mod was the only one causing crashes in my line-up. The one problem that persists is the skin color issue and I know what I can do to fix it in the future, assuming they don't (that one, they might really want to look at, if nothing else).

If any sort of advisory were made like that, I feel like it should reflect the fact. That fact being, some mods will cause crashes with it, some won't, and the user should decide what to do based upon that.

edit: 1.5 fixes more for me than it breaks. I would have been unappreciative if someone had "warned" me, saying, "do not update to 1.5, it's bad!!!!"

Most of MMM is a ESM and doesn't touch much and what it does touch are monsters (not something that really stands out if they are missing, just assume they haven't spawned ect unlike an entire building vanishing).

greenerworld is bacically a few repoints on tree\grass meshes and textures with a few minor cell edits... cell edits are affect by v1.5 of course, need I go on?

Seriously don't change your mod to get it "working" with v1.5, v1.5 IS BROKEN and Bethesda will have to fix it and when they do you'll just have to go undo all you've done as it does impact performance.

[Jason Rice]

Most of MMM is a ESM and doesn't touch much and what it does touch are monsters (not something that really stands out if they are missing, just assume they haven't spawned ect unlike an entire building vanishing).

greenerworld is bacically a few repoints on tree\grass meshes and textures with a few minor cell edits... cell edits are affect by v1.5 of course, need I go on?

Seriously don't change your mod to get it "working" with v1.5, v1.5 IS BROKEN and Bethesda will have to fix it and when they do you'll just have to go undo all you've done as it does impact performance.

I hope you're right... I'm not much of an optimist anymore. I honestly think Bethesda isn't gonna do anything.

EDIT: Also, Bethesda unlocked the Dreamcrusher perk, for ruining 1.5... and -2000 karma...

[James Shaw]

Most of MMM is a ESM and doesn't touch much and what it does touch are monsters (not something that really stands out if they are missing, just assume they haven't spawned ect unlike an entire building vanishing).

greenerworld is bacically a few repoints on tree\grass meshes and textures with a few minor cell edits... cell edits are affect by v1.5 of course, need I go on?

Seriously don't change your mod to get it "working" with v1.5, v1.5 IS BROKEN and Bethesda will have to fix it and when they do you'll just have to go undo all you've done as it does impact performance.

Am using GREEN WORLD and so far there have been no problems alongside F.O.O.K. aswell as FELLOUT and a few other mods. I did have to remove some before because i was getting the crash during save bug but now everything is working fine. I also checked out Megaton after Parjay the fantastic Modder of EXISTENCE 2.0 reported not being able to leave Megaton anymore. Fortunately for me i have not been effected by this and his is also one of the few mods am using. Hopefully this will help in someway and if things change i'll report it right away. Thanks

[Rebecca Dosch]

Seriously don't change your mod to get it "working" with v1.5, v1.5 IS BROKEN and Bethesda will have to fix it and when they do you'll just have to go undo all you've done as it does impact performance.

I do intend to take your advice on that. This situation needs to mature a bit.

It's the case though that moving to an .esm fixes a terrible navmesh issue that pre-dates 1.5. Unless they're also able to make navmeshes in .esp's work properly, I'm gonna end up in an .esm anyway.

I think I'll focus on like.... monsters and enemies... or something.. for a bit. Find something other than worldbuilding to do for a while.

But, my game's not broken, and I like 1.5. I think that the enemies may be moving and fighting better than even in 1.4, and its got other good things, including VATS that doesn't make me think I'm in a burger king drive-through (waiting... waiting...).

[Janeth Valenzuela Castelo]

including VATS that doesn't make me think I'm in a burger king drive-through (waiting... waiting...).

Or you can use fake patch, and erase the issue without the other horrible bugs