Martin Septim and Dragon Shouts : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:38 pm

Why couldn't he use them? or Uriel Septim VII before him?

I really thought they, or at least Uriel, were defenceless and weak but hey now that I thought about it... they are all Dragonborn, why were they not trained to use the Voice? Why didn't they know anything about it in the first place?

Is it because being dragonborn comes with magnitudes? Only the very strong Dragonborns that were born with much more "dragon blood" can use the Voice or what?

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:10 pm

Why couldn't he use them? or Uriel Septim VII before him?

I really thought they, or at least Uriel, were defenceless and weak but hey now that I thought about it... they are all Dragonborn, why were they not trained to use the Voice? Why didn't they know anything about it in the first place?

Is it because being dragonborn comes with magnitudes? Only the very strong Dragonborns that were born with much more "dragon blood" can use the Voice or what?

Being Dragonborn is not a genetic trait mostly, they probably could not absorb a dragons soul if they tried.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:31 pm

It's not, but they were both Dragonborns... all the emperors were Dragonborns :/ So ja even though it's not hereditary, all of the emperors are mysteriously Dragonborns because they need to light the Dragonfires :/

But does one really need dragon souls to use the Voice?

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:30 am

Martin likely wasn't born a true Dragonborn, just "Dragon-blooded", ironically enough. I'm convinced that he did die a Dragonborn, however. Remember, after all is said and done, we cannot look upon him without seeing a dragon.

That being said, anybody can learn the Thu'um. But only proper Dovahs can eat dragon-souls and [censored] thunder straight out of the womb.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:53 am

^ NO!!!!!! All the lore about the Thu'um from before Skyrim says anybody, or at least any nord, can be a tongue. Dragonborn are just more naturally talented at it.

EDIT: i was ninja'd, the "no" if in response to the post above the post above mine.

Martin never used a shout because the only place he could have been taught, the College of the Voice in Markarth, was a joke.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:00 pm

off-topic, but is the college of the voice actually in ESV? Just a yes or no, please.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:59 pm

^ NO!!!!!! All the lore about the Thu'um from before Skyrim says anybody, or at least any nord, can be a tongue. Dragonborn are just more naturally talented at it.

EDIT: i was ninja'd, the "no" if in response to the post above the post above mine.

Martin never used a shout because the only place he could have been taught, the College of the Voice in Markarth, was a joke.

So what about Uriel? He had more than enough time to learn the Voice :/

Nevertheless, shouldn't that be like the ultimate self defence? all this assassination attempt just seems like a successful suicide attempt now lol

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:12 am

My guess would be that there were no dragon souls around for either of them to absorb, so even if they did speak the tongue, they would need to kill a dragon or two before they could use the shout.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:39 am

No you need the souls to upgrade the shouts, not to learn them :/

The shouts are just simple words and as Don't forget this said everyone can learn The Voice and so even people in Oblivion could do it, but I still wonder why no one did :/ You don't need Dragons to use them :S

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:07 am

No you need the souls to upgrade the shouts, not to learn them :/

The shouts are just simple words and as Don't forget this said everyone can learn The Voice and so even people in Oblivion could do it, but I still wonder why no one did :/ You don't need Dragons to use them :S

You can learn all the words of the shout you want, but you can't use any of them until you kill a dragon. This is probably just a game mechanic though.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:07 am

Just because its said in game doesn't make it true. All the past Emperors were not dragonborn, it was mostly propaganda.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:24 am

I think it is... I'm pretty sure there were no Dragons in Tiber's time :/

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:25 pm

I think it is... I'm pretty sure there were no Dragons in Tiber's time :/

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/arrival-stros-mkai-part-1

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:04 pm

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/arrival-stros-mkai-part-1

Well I'm still not sure about it... :/ I don't think you need to kill a dragon to learn the shout... since they have an Academy for the Voice :/ It's not like they just opened it and waited until Dragons came back so they'll be able to slay them and teach the shouts :/

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:22 am

The Acadamy must be something slightly different. The Greybeards fought a war to keep its secrets from being used in warfare.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:48 am

The Acadamy must be something slightly different. The Greybeards fought a war to keep its secrets from being used in warfare.

Well so that proves the Shouts don't need you to have a dragon soul right?

I mean it's enough that you have the Dragon blood :/ Why would Alduin/Akatosh want you to kill Dragons to be able to use his blessing?

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:33 pm

No you do not need a dragon-soul to use the Thu'um. It can be taught to anyone.

Btw its more likely that it Lorkhan wanting you to stop Alduin, and helping you along that way. Not Alduin.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:10 am

The Thu'um isn't the same as the dragon shouts. The greybeards have the power of voice. They can literally kill you with their voices. The dragon shouts are the sole dominion of the Dragonborn, whereas the Thu'um itself is more widely known. Dragon shouts are based upon Thu'um, I believe, but they're a more specific form of it.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:03 pm

The Thu'um isn't the same as the dragon shouts. The greybeards have the power of voice. They can literally kill you with their voices. The dragon shouts are the sole dominion of the Dragonborn, whereas the Thu'um itself is more widely known. Dragon shouts are based upon Thu'um, I believe, but they're a more specific form of it.

They appear to be the same from the info we have.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:39 pm

They appear to be the same from the info we have.

Dragon shouts are definitely thu'um. The 360 achievement for collecting every shout is called "Thu'um Master"

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:27 pm

Yea but not the opposite. It makes sense now!

But still doesn't answer my question as to why Uriel VII haven't learned it :/

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:51 am

Even if he was dragonborn, there were no dragons for him or Uriel to kill and get souls from.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:38 pm

Yes but that's for Dragonshouts, not Thu'um :S They have an Academy for it in Skyrim... once again, they won't just open it and wait until Dragons would come back would they?

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_1st_Edition/Skyrim

Here check out the "The Tongues" section, Dragon shouts is something only a Dragonborn can do, and that requires Dragon Souls, but Thu'um which is "based largely on their veneration of the Wind as the personification of Kynareth".... So using the Voice does not require Dragon souls, only Dragon shouts do because these are shouts in Dragon Language, unlike the Thu'um.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:23 am

Thu'um = dragonshout. The requirement of dragon souls makes them stronger, and perhaps does dragonborn specific things to them.

As for the Septims, my guess is that since they weren't born dragonborn (but became so), they don't have powers of Thu'um or don't have them to the same degree. It's also not really something an emperor would need to have, so it's likely that they never even tried. Of course, we could argue that Imperial powers like Voice of the Emperor are a type of Thu'um as well.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:59 pm

Of course, we could argue that Imperial powers like Voice of the Emperor are a type of Thu'um as well.

How have I never thought of this before? I think this is most likely correct.