[Adam Kriner]

For the ending of a video game to cause the kind of uproar Mass Effect 3's ending has, it must be one of the greatest and most important video games to ever be created. It's a bit confusing and frustrating seeing people calling the people who gave us that game a bunch of idiots, and saying they will never buy another game from them again.

[Chad Holloway]

Yes, that was my feeling, exactly. Yeah, a "downer ending" kind of svcked, but it was pretty telegraphed through most of the last parts of the game. But it wasn't just a Downer Ending.... it was a loss. And I didn't hero my way through three games, being led to care about all these characters/places/cultures, just to LOSE at the end.

-----
crossposted from the general thread:







Nah, I don't buy it.

Spoiler

Sure, the kid said something about Control... and as he did, the image of the Illusive Man came up, as the exemplar of that option. Which means it was instantly painted as More Evil Than Evil?. No way in heck could anyone view that option as in the same zip code as "positive".

IMHO

Spoiler

But when he talks about Control hes talking about how there will be peace and love and flowers. When he talks about Destroy he says it wont last, organics lead to chaos and synthetics will destroy organics eventually

http://i.imgur.com/xUq9t.png
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/15992406.jpg

[Bek Rideout]

Spoiler

But when he talks about Control hes talking about how there will be peace and love and flowers. When he talks about Destroy he says it wont last, organics lead to chaos and synthetics will destroy organics eventually

Oh, are you suggesting that we should believe what he says in the first place?

Spoiler

A few words from ghost boy (who likely has an agenda, and is coming from a position of flawed logic in the first place (inevitable conflict between organics and synthetics) doesn't really counter the stuff that's built up all game (like TIM's actions and motivations). Anderson is held up as the spokesman for Destroy, TIM is held up as the spokesman for Control. Destroy is clearly a "good" option (or at least "less bad", since all three options are bad), Control is clearly evil. And Synthesis is somewhere in between, since it kills everyone, rather than just the synthetics.

[Eddie Howe]

I think the main problem I had with the ending was how sudden it was. You spend all 3 games making some pretty massive choices, but you never get to find out the consequences of most of them. You never get to find out what happens to your squad, despite the fact the series spends 3 games trying to make you care about them.

Overall I thought the series was excellent, it's just a shame the one point the whole 3 games were leading up to is a bit of a disappointment.

[Michelle Chau]

Oh, are you suggesting that we should believe what he says in the first place?

Spoiler

A few words from ghost boy (who likely has an agenda, and is coming from a position of flawed logic in the first place (inevitable conflict between organics and synthetics) doesn't really counter the stuff that's built up all game (like TIM's actions and motivations). Anderson is held up as the spokesman for Destroy, TIM is held up as the spokesman for Control. Destroy is clearly a "good" option (or at least "less bad", since all three options are bad), Control is clearly evil. And Synthesis is somewhere in between, since it kills everyone, rather than just the synthetics.

Spoiler

I'm not saying Control is good. I know Control is bad. Destroy is the way to resist indoctrination. It's just that the boy was trying to sell it off the other way.

[ANaIs GRelot]

I've noticed people mentioning this, but I've no idea where it's coming from. Saren made himself into a cyborg (or rather, Sovereign manipulated him into doing so in order to cement his control), but that was never his goal. His belief was that by aiding the Reapers, he could prove the worth of some organics and thus not all would be killed. He was attempting to maximize the survival rate in the only way he knew how. If one of the choices was supposed to reflect Saren's goal, it should have been servitude, not synthesis.

I just finished ME1 again yesterday. At the very end, when Shepard faces off against Saren at the podium in the Citadel Tower, he says he thought about what she said (on Virmire) and spoke to Sovereign and agreed to modifications (I am paraphrasing, but he clearly let Sovereign make modifications to him.) He says that he agreed to it, because he didn't want to doubt (read, Sovereign didn't want some questioning minion, just an obedient one). Saren's motivations were to sort of pre-agree two the overlord-dom of the Reapers and thus allow some sort of existance for organics. An ersatz Stockholm Syndrome, if you will. But his thinking got muddled by Sovereign, and he really was just a tool to be used - that he agreed to this sort of half-life of "hey I'm alive, but I have given over my free will" says a lot about how the Reapers can indoctrinate people I guess.

For the ending of a video game to cause the kind of uproar Mass Effect 3's ending has, it must be one of the greatest and most important video games to ever be created. It's a bit confusing and frustrating seeing people calling the people who gave us that game a bunch of idiots, and saying they will never buy another game from them again.

People are talking about how they feel about the ending. The vast majority of people on this forum at least, have just questioned the decisions and expressed their disappointment in a very frustrating ending to an otherwise excellent series. Yes, there is a faction that has gotten all miltant about it, but most people are just kind of bummed that they were left with a flat feeling, instead of a solid ending to Mass Effect. And we are discussing it. There has been minimal calling for torches and pitchforks and heading toward Bioware's offices.

[Jade]

I've noticed people mentioning this, but I've no idea where it's coming from. Saren made himself into a cyborg (or rather, Sovereign manipulated him into doing so in order to cement his control), but that was never his goal. His belief was that by aiding the Reapers, he could prove the worth of some organics and thus not all would be killed. He was attempting to maximize the survival rate in the only way he knew how. If one of the choices was supposed to reflect Saren's goal, it should have been servitude, not synthesis.

I agree. Saren was never working toward synthesis. Neither were the reapers. The reapers' goal was to assimilate life into reaper form - not to synthesize synthetic and non-synthetic life just to see what would happen. EDI is the product of a reaper synthesis. The geth can synthesize with the reapers before the ending. And Shepard has personally undergone a synthesis with synthetics. The synthesis ending just seemed to expand that option to everyone else in the galaxy. It had nothing to do with Saren.

[Amanda Leis]

I was referring to the end of Mass Effect 2.

What is not plausible about the ending? A giant device was built that would destroy all synthetic life. You use it, synthetic life ends.

The Reaper in ME2 was an incomplete one, barely operable.

Spoiler

As for ME3 ending, think about it.
1) Create synthetics to kill organics so they won't be killed by synthetics? Circular logic much?
2) Who built the convenient machines in the Citadel to enable Shepard to conveniently end the Reaper cycle?
3) There is no such a thing possible as merging Organic and "Synthetic" DNA. Any meddling with any DNA may result in untimely deaths or severe mutations depending on scale.
4) Shepard reaches the Conveniently Placed Plot Chamber, which magically causes the ghost boy to abandon his plan? What the hell?
5) Unnecessary self-sacrifice for Shepard. Blowing yourself up magically gives you full control over Reapers?
6) Who is the ghost kid, why did the Reapers suddenly get demoted to little more than petty goons,

Did you even complete the game?

[[ becca ]]

The Reaper in ME2 was an incomplete one, barely operable.

Spoiler

As for ME3 ending, think about it.
1) Create synthetics to kill organics so they won't be killed by synthetics? Circular logic much?
2) Who built the convenient machines in the Citadel to enable Shepard to conveniently end the Reaper cycle?
3) There is no such a thing possible as merging Organic and "Synthetic" DNA. Any meddling with any DNA may result in untimely deaths or severe mutations depending on scale.
4) Shepard reaches the Conveniently Placed Plot Chamber, which magically causes the ghost boy to abandon his plan? What the hell?
5) Unnecessary self-sacrifice for Shepard. Blowing yourself up magically gives you full control over Reapers?
6) Who is the ghost kid, why did the Reapers suddenly get demoted to little more than petty goons,

Did you even complete the game?

Spoiler

1) Yes this is circular logic. That doesn't mean it isn't plausible. A lot of people do a lot of things that don't make sense. This is like saying that WW2 was implausible because Hitlers ideology didn't make sense.

2) I don't know, who do you think did it?

3) As far as you know. We have to accept that things are known in the Mass Effect universe that isn't known to us. There is no way to propel a ship to "ftl" speeds, maybe you should have stopped playing the first time you flew through a mass relay.

4) The ghost boy doesn't have a plan. he is just a ghost boy, most likely a hallucination. He can't actually do anything except try and convince you that you should do one thing or the other.

5) Probably not, but you can feel free to choose that ending anyway.

6) He is probably a hallucination.

These aren't really questions that need to be answered. They are left to your imagination.

Spoiler

The reapers are supposed to be an unbeatable enemy. It is supposed to take a bit of a miracle to defeat them.

[Kayla Bee]

Spoiler

1) Yes this is circular logic. That doesn't mean it isn't plausible. A lot of people do a lot of things that don't make sense. This is like saying that WW2 was implausible because Hitlers ideology didn't make sense.
2) I don't know, who do you think did it?
3) As far as you know. We have to accept that things are known in the Mass Effect universe that isn't known to us. There is no way to propel a ship to "ftl" speeds, maybe you should have stopped playing the first time you flew through a mass relay.
4) The ghost boy doesn't have a plan. he is just a ghost boy, most likely a hallucination. He can't actually do anything except try and convince you that you should do one thing or the other.
5) Probably not, but you can feel free to choose that ending anyway.
6) He is probably a hallucination.

These aren't really questions that need to be answered. They are left to your imagination.

Spoiler

The reapers are supposed to be an unbeatable enemy. It is supposed to take a bit of a miracle to defeat them.

Spoiler

See, the ending makes no sense and the only little sense there is comes from wishful thinking and imagination - which does not make the ending good in any way.
The ending was supposed to answer all our questions, to provide a multi-choice conclusion based on our actions in the series. And what did we get? Three color-coded bursts to wipe out all Relays, a truckload of plot holes with no explanation, and absolutely no reflection to our choices. In fact the destruction of the Relays renders all our efforts useless since now all races are stuck on Earth with no hope of going home.

You don't need a ridiculous Plot Device to deal with the Reapers. What would have sufficed well was a way to drive them back to Dark Space with casualties inflicted by the Crucible (which could have been just a massive weapon as initially proposed) and the army/fleet you gathered during the game. Just a straightforward epic battle we have seen in countless BW games before this.

P.S. I don't see a point in comparing real-life ideologies to video game endings.

[Veronica Flores]

The Reaper in ME2 was an incomplete one, barely operable.

Its still a giant robot.

It reminds me of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cC3IGts3Dyk

[Len swann]

On Bioware's artistic integrity: Why can I criticize poorly implemented game mechanics, but poor writing can be excused based on "artistic freedom". It's Bioware's game and so they can write it how they want, but they can also implement mechanics just as they want. Won't stop me from criticizing the tedium of planet scanning, why should it stop me from criticizing any writing decisions I find dubious? Beyond that, the writing in Mass Effect cannot be separated from the gameplay of Mass Effect. This isn't a non-interactive story that only unfolds as I reach certain triggers. It's gameplay just as much as shooting people.

I don't think anyone was surprised that at least some number of fans were critical of the game's ending. I'd imagine that if you're a game designer putting out the sequel to a really popular game - you're always expecting that there's going to be at least some degree of negative feedback coming your way. You can't please everyone and all that.

I don't think this controversy is so much about a fan's right to be critical, so much as to what degree the fanbase's sense of ownership is valid, and where you draw the line on what they can conceivably demand in a game like this.

I'm not the first one to bring up comparisons between this situation with the more militant upset fans, and Stephen King's Misery. That story is all about a writer's greatest fears - a fan going too far in their ownership of the property, and (literally) forcing the writer to make changes to the integrity of their art.

And I think there's a point to be made for that, quite honestly. If the good folks at Bioware really had this exact ending in mind when they started the series, that would be one thing. But, like many games it seems, I think more focus tends to get put in the set-pieces that make up the bulk of the game; and quite often the ending is almost an afterthought. (ME3 would hardly be the first video game ever that had an otherwise pretty good story, that fell flat in the execution of it's ending. Especially considering overall I've been really pleased with how they had wrapped up ME1 and ME2 so well.)

Maybe a bad example, but I view it as the difference between a movie like The Usual Suspects or The Sixth Sense and a TV show like Lost or Battlestar Galactica. In the former - the writers were working from the beginning towards a specific plot twist. Everything up to that point is organically leaving a bread-crumb trail, that when you reach the end of the movie and look back, everything fits together nicely. Because they had planned all along.

With the latter, the writers didn't know themselves what the "truth" behind the mysteries they'd set up were, when they began the writing process. They weren't working on building up to a specific goal the entire time; and instead they were basically "making it all up" as they went along.

Now, I don't really have a problem with that. There's no lack of artistic license lost regardless of which philosophy you choose to follow as a writer (though Edgar Allen Poe might have some things to say about not starting out with a firm ending in mind...) Generally, a show like BSG or Lost is focusing more on the character development anyway - so long as there's closure with the characters at the end of it's run, it's not that big of a deal if people weren't all that pleased with how things wrapped up. (I didn't love the ending of BSG, for example - but it was at least emotionally fulfilling for me.)

Anyway, that's where I fall in regards to Bioware changing the ending of Mass Effect 3. I don't want to be Kathy Bates in Misery. If the end of ME3 was a specific goal that they were always building up to from the outset of the series - then I believe in the artistic integrity of their choices (even if I don't like them) and probably wouldn't download an optional DLC that makes changes to the story. (I don't like alternate endings on DVD extras for this same reason.)

But if, like I suspect, the ending was simply the last thing they worked on, and then had to track back to make it fit - then I don't have much of a problem with Bioware putting out a ret-con. As far as I see it - if they'd put this game to a focus group and received this kind of feedback, I have a feeling they would have made some changes.

For comparison - if a focus group had reacted really badly to the plot twist in The Sixth Sense, they wouldn't have suddenly decided that Bruce Willis was alive the entire time. Because that's the point of that movie - without the plot twist, you don't have a movie, as everything's leading up to that reveal. However, if you weren't always building up to a specific plot twist, and the end wasn't really the main focus of your artistic drive; then I don't really see much of a problem.

Of course, I don't really think any sort of changes are going to make anyone feel much better (and I don't see how it won't just feel shallow and hollow.) But I'd at least be curious to see what they do with it.

[Harry Leon]

Its still a giant robot.

It reminds me of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cC3IGts3Dyk

True, it wasn't the best possible end boss we could have, but at least it kept its mouth shut and died quickly. No plot holes, no space magic, just shoot the damn thing down and get the hell out of there.
Does not compare with the Archdemon or Saren, but it serves its purpose.

[victoria johnstone]

No plot holes, no space magic

If you ignore the fact, for some reason they need to melt people down and turn them into spaceship parts.
And that them being melted down somehow makes them a sentient machine.

And the fact the reaper would never be finished in time for the cycle, so the collectors were pointless.

Not a plothole, but who the [censored] suspends a huge metal machine over a lrge pit, held up by glass tubes.

[Campbell]

Not a plothole, but who the [censored] suspends a huge metal machine over a lrge pit, held up by glass tubes.

I think it might be the sort of good idea employed by people who cackle evilly.

[Sweets Sweets]

...

Not a plothole, but who the [censored] suspends a huge metal machine over a lrge pit, held up by glass tubes.

The same types who capture the hero, devise a ridiculously complex mechanism to kill him incredibly slowly and then leave the room/ilsand/prison/stronghold to go have tea or canoodle with their vixenish lover, leaving the hero alone,whereupon the hero promptly figures out a way to get out, or his buddies miraculously find a secret way in and, unchallenged, get him freed.

[Sophie Miller]

Am I the only person annoyed by the ubiquitous use of the word "synthetic"? The Geth were built as fake Quarians to do [censored] work, they are synthetic quarians. The Reapers are just machines, sometimes built in the likeness of other races, but they aren't built as "fake" versions of that race; their function just requires organic material apparently. Just like EDI was built as an AI for a ship, sure she also operates a smoking-hot android body but she's still the ship and was primarily built as a ship AI, not a "fake" or replacement human being.

EDIT: I mean really, synthetic, who uses that word as a catch-all phrase for intelligent machines?

EDIT2: I guess you could be refering to "fake" intelligence itself, to which I would say your pretty closed-minded to automatically assume that organic life is the only right life.

[louise fortin]

Pretty sure he wass talking about the boss at the end of ME2.

Well, the same applies, my Vanguard for example has to kill it with a pistol, since the Claymore has a bit too high spread at that range. Though to be fair, in ME3 the Paladin pistol is so damn powerful that you propably end up using it in the final fight if you have it

[Juanita Hernandez]

People are talking about how they feel about the ending. The vast majority of people on this forum at least, have just questioned the decisions and expressed their disappointment in a very frustrating ending to an otherwise excellent series. Yes, there is a faction that has gotten all miltant about it, but most people are just kind of bummed that they were left with a flat feeling, instead of a solid ending to Mass Effect. And we are discussing it. There has been minimal calling for torches and pitchforks and heading toward Bioware's offices.

What i had my torch and pitchfork all ready dammit and my chant, organised the crazed mob to burn down the castle as well, now im going to have to put it back in storage, geez what a let down.

[Bad News Rogers]

What i had my torch and pitchfork all ready dammit and my chant, organised the crazed mob to burn down the castle as well, now im going to have to put it back in storage, geez what a let down.

Yeah, it svcks when mob mentality gets distracted by a squirrel, or something shiny... *runs off after shiny squirrel*

[no_excuse]

If you ignore the fact, for some reason they need to melt people down and turn them into spaceship parts.
And that them being melted down somehow makes them a sentient machine.

And the fact the reaper would never be finished in time for the cycle, so the collectors were pointless.

Not a plothole, but who the [censored] suspends a huge metal machine over a lrge pit, held up by glass tubes.

Organic/machine hybrid is what the Starchild wants, that way one will not wipe the other out. They whole melting down part was just a way to "preserve" the species, though why is never made clear, along with a boat load of other things.

They suspend the giant robot over a large hole because that's where the legs go.....

The cycle takes centuries, I think they were getting at, when one race is wiped out to create a reaper, that reaper (possibly) stays behind as the Vangaurd to restart the cycle at the appropriate time.

[Farrah Barry]

The same types who capture the hero, devise a ridiculously complex mechanism to kill him incredibly slowly and then leave the room/ilsand/prison/stronghold to go have tea or canoodle with their vixenish lover, leaving the hero alone,whereupon the hero promptly figures out a way to get out, or his buddies miraculously find a secret way in and, unchallenged, get him freed.

I hve always hated that stuff in any story.
Not as bad as arrival in mass effect 2. Didnt even tie him up AND left a mech control terminal in the room.
The agian I hated soverign in ME1 revealing his identity, and telling you about the reapers. That could have been handled by virgil, but nope.

Yeah, it svcks when mob mentality gets distracted by a squirrel, or something shiny... *runs off after shiny squirrel*

Squirrels are mesmerising though. Saw one in the park the other day, it was doing nothing impressive (just eating) but it somehow held my attention for a few minutes until it left...

So that mass effect, eh.

[Nathan Risch]

Organic/machine hybrid is what the Starchild wants, that way one will not wipe the other out. They whole melting down part was just a way to "preserve" the species, though why is never made clear, along with a boat load of other things.

They suspend the giant robot over a large hole because that's where the legs go.....

The cycle takes centuries, I think they were getting at, when one race is wiped out to create a reaper, that reaper (possibly) stays behind as the Vangaurd to restart the cycle at the appropriate time.

Only if I kiled you, took the minerals from your corpse, did that to 10000000 others, then made a machine out of it. It wouldnt be organic.
If they wanted to preseve dna it would make more sense to build a ship, then stor lots of that species DNA inside. Or make some sort of prison/home, the species lives on, but they are trapped inside the ship.
The current idea just makes no sense.

Thats a poor way to do things. Would me much smarter, to have the parts all assembled seperately then put together at the end. Or just lie the damn thing down, where it wont be at risk of falling and breaking.

Only the collectors had no purpose. They spent 2 years harvesting to buld half a reaper.
By then the reapers were almost at the galaxy, the reaper wasnt needed. All they did was loose a bse, and give away information.

[LijLuva]

They suspend the giant robot over a large hole because that's where the legs go.....

It doesn't have legs. It levitates by means of space magic.

[Annick Charron]

snip

Im not saying it isn't full of plot holes and WTF moments, its one of the reasons I fail to see why everyone touts Biowares writing, its par for scifi fantasy at best.

It doesn't have legs. It levitates by means of space magic.

Its held up by giant syringes, then it magically holds on/climbs up every 30 seconds.