[Alessandra Botham]

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1359280-mass-effect-3-ending-discussion-thread-spoilers/
http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1359854-mass-effect-3-ending-discussion-thread-2-spoilers/
A topic for discussing the Mass Effect 3 endings specifically. But it's best if you keep on using spoiler tags.

RPS had two nice articles on the subject, basically a negative and a positive one:

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/03/14/mass-effect-3-the-end-of-an-epic/
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/03/19/whats-right-with-mass-effect-3s-ending/

Note: Obviously this thread will be containing heavy spoilers. Like Povuholo has already said, it's still best to try and keep the big stuff in spoiler tags - that said, I'd still not recommend reading through this thread until after you've already finished the game.

[lucy chadwick]

Okay, so I just finished the game today. Looks like the last one closed with post limit, and considering I have some things to get off my chest (not to mention finally being able to join in on this with my own opinions now that I've been able to read up on the whole controversy and just what it's all about,) I figured I'd go ahead and open up a third thread.

Seems like every day, there's been new articles on this whole thing on just about any gaming site I go to. To the point that eventually I had to swear off going to most sites just so I wouldn't be tempted to read through what was pretty much guaranteed to have a bunch of spoilers. This is a series that my wife and I have been enjoying since it first came out (back when we were still dating - we bought a 360 specifically to get ready for Mass Effect 1, which was our first major purchase together at the time.)

So this series has been with us throughout our entire relationship. Since the series began, we've moved in together, gotten married, and saw the birth of our son. And this game has been something we've shared together through all of that. It's been a lot harder for us to fit it into our schedule with each sequel, but we were very much looking forward to the finale to the trilogy, and seeing how the series wrapped up.

So anyway - I have to say that, overall, I really loved about 90% of the ending. From the "point of no return" on, I found it very engaging emotionally and well-written. I thought they did a really good job overall in this game of driving home how high the stakes were, and pushing the emotional attachment I have with the characters I've come to know.

But I can see where this uproar is coming from now. And I can't really say that I blame them. I don't think that I'm really quite as offended as a lot of people seem to be. I want to stand with Bioware in terms of "artistic integrity," but I have some doubts about that, as well. In short (because I have a feeling it's going to be a much longer post,) I don't see myself joining those clamoring for a ret-conned ending - but at the same time, I'll at least check it out if they go through with an optional DLC. I have a feeling it won't make anyone any happier, but I figure it might be worth a try.

Anyway, here's the issue that I have with the whole thing (and this is probably nothing new to anyone who's been following any of this: )

Spoiler

I can't think of any roleplaying that's chosen to go with a "choose A,B, or C" at the end of their game, where the fans have been at all pleased with it. Deus Ex continues to think it's a good idea every time - but I don't think anyone's ever said that was a good idea. It just doesn't work, historically it's never gone down well, and I can't really sympathize with Bioware in this regard if they actually thought this time it would work out any better, when it never has in the past.

I think the big problem (for me) is that the choices are just far too grandiose, all-encompassing, and abrupt. Whatever path you pick so totally overshadows any choices you've made previously, as to render them essentially inconsequential. For a game whose entire raison d'etre has been an experiment in tracking and evolving important decisions over the course of three games - it's just not a good idea to boil it all down to "never mind anything you've ever done or invested in for the past 120+ hours, it all comes down to choosing which hallway to walk down, which has nothing to do with anything that's happened in the previous games, and which hasn't been but briefly foreshadowed, if at all."

And barring the execution, I also have some issue with the massive plot-holes the ending I got brought up. (And I don't think it's generally a good idea to introduce massive plot holes at the end of a series. I knew going in that not everything was going to be answered - and that I've have some qualms about certain things, but still...)

Spoiler

I ended up choosing the "synthesis" ending, where I made everything in the galaxy... kind of glow with circuitry magic stuff?

I also - and I'm assuming this is true for each ending, but I could be wrong - destroyed every Mass Effect Relay in the galaxy? Which seems like, logistically, a... bit of a problem. I mean, I now have the vast majority of the galaxy's armada now stranded in the Sol system. Just the Quarian fleet alone is going to take a lot of resources to keep fed and maintained (and those liveships I'm assuming need contant new resources, no matter how much recycling you're doing.)

There's... I can't help but thinking that I've pulled the rug on galactic civilization as we know it. And the ending pretty much confirms this. There's no way that closing the Mass Relays hasn't pretty condemned gajillions of people to starvation and isolation; and essentially a total breakdown of civilization across the entire galaxy. Sure, that's better than getting wiped out by Reapers. But still...

Kind of a downer ending.

I also have issue with some of the wrap-up that was provided, and some glaring unanswered questions:

Spoiler

So... did everyone I took with me on my squad die? Seems like maybe they could have mentioned that, even briefly. Over and over again it's driven home that these characters matter to me. They've put a lot of work over the course of three games making these guys matter to me. I sort of care a lot about these people and what happens to them. Not a good time to just gloss over that little point, I think.

And I saw that Joker and EDI made it out alive (in my game, at least) and they seem happy. But... I kinda sorta had this really deep emotional relationship with Miranda that I was working on. I don't get anything about her at all? Because I really like Joker and all. But.. maybe as a player I might be curious about my romantic interest?

My wife and I called it very early on: we were going to be surprised if Shepard made it out alive. I thought it was actually rather touching watching my character die, all things considered. And as I am, I get a flashback of Anderson, and Liara. Are you telling me I didn't even think of Miranda during my very last thoughts? I didn't even romance Liara in my game.

Okay, enough of that. In the end, I kind of feel somewhat the same as I did at the ending of Battlestar Galactica. It left me feeling that, in the end, the writers really were just making it out as they went along. Which, in and of itself, I don't really have a problem with. But then at least give me a good ending. If you're really just winging it and haven't been foreshadowing and pulling in themes that will be relevant at the conclusion of a fully-plotted storyline, that's fine. Just don't leave me hanging.

I really kind of doubt that the writers on Mass Effect had this ending all planned out in this manner all the way since the very beginning of Mass Effect 1. I just don't get that feeling. I don't think they even knew what the Reapers were, when they started Mass Effect 1, to be quite honest.

And I'm okay with that. That's a writer's prerogative. But here's where I fall in the whole "artistic integrity" thing, then:

If, hypothetically, I was sitting down and talking to any and all of the Mass Effect writers, and they could honestly tell me this was exactly what they had planned all along, then I'd be okay with this being the "real" ending. I don't generally like the concept of alternate endings in movies, for example. I prefer to know what the writer had in mind, and was working towards.

But, on the other hand (and I'm getting the feeling this is closer to the truth,) this was simply what they plugged in for the end, when they got to it - then I think I'd be "okay" with Bioware releasing some DLC to ret-con some things. You see this a lot in videogames, particularly. They still (no matter how well-written) often have this problem of really focusing on some major set-pieces, and kind of losing track of the big picture somewhere down the line.

And I have a feeling that's what happened here.

So... long rant, I know. (Probably not a lot will read this, but it does feel good getting this off my chest. My Wife still hasn't finished the game, so I can't talk to her about it yet.) I'm not really all that bothered, truth be told. And if I didn't particularly enjoy the very end, I really did absolutely love everything leading up to it:

Spoiler

Honestly, I was on board literally up until the point the "catalyst" started talking about my choices.

[Jason King]

I really kind of doubt that the writers on Mass Effect had this ending all planned out in this manner all the way since the very beginning of Mass Effect 1. I just don't get that feeling. I don't think they even knew what the Reapers were, when they started Mass Effect 1, to be quite honest.

This is the issue, I think. I've been replaying Mass Effect 1 and it occassionally approaches the idea that maybe synthetics and organics are diametrically opposed, but it never really goes there. I mean, yeah one of your companions mentions AIs must be destroyed upon contact when you track down that citadel AI. And yeah, you're fighting a rogue spectre leading an army of synthetics. But Saren also uses Krogan and Asari. And, at least in side missions, biotic terrorists are just as frequent a threat to the galaxy. So is "the dangers of mental super powers" also a theme? I wouldn't say so. The problem becomes one of there not really being any theme beyond something trite like "never give up in the face of overwhelming odds". Even making the ending deal with dark energy, as some have suggested, would seem weird to me. Not because it's not a part of Mass Effect lore, but because it's only ever been part of the periphery.

On Bioware's artistic integrity: Why can I criticize poorly implemented game mechanics, but poor writing can be excused based on "artistic freedom". It's Bioware's game and so they can write it how they want, but they can also implement mechanics just as they want. Won't stop me from criticizing the tedium of planet scanning, why should it stop me from criticizing any writing decisions I find dubious? Beyond that, the writing in Mass Effect cannot be separated from the gameplay of Mass Effect. This isn't a non-interactive story that only unfolds as I reach certain triggers. It's gameplay just as much as shooting people.

[Heather beauchamp]

Of course, I could probably have just as easily linked to Shamus Young's http://www.zenimax.com/external.php?locale=en-us&url=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/experienced-points/9506-Mass-Effect-3-Ending-Controversy (and an article on his http://www.zenimax.com/external.php?locale=en-us&url=http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=15395,) as I pretty much agree with everything he's saying - and he said it much better than I did.

Also - I kind of was expecting a final battle more akin to Mass Effect 2. I went in rather expecting that my Galactic Readiness score was going to have an immediate and measurable effect on how things were going to play out - and I didn't notice that it mattered at all. Given my druthers, I really would have preferred something similar to ME2; making choices, and where the decisions I'd made had a real effect on how the action played out. Which I just didn't see very much of.

Oh well. I really did enjoy 95% of the entire game. I think I could have overlooked a lot of other stuff if I had a more satisfying ending.

[Gracie Dugdale]

I found http://www.rarityguide.com/articles/articles/1739/1/Mass-Effect-3-Endings-Guide---HEAVY-SPOILERS/Page1.html couple nights ago. I don't know this have been posted or not. It has lot of spoilers in it. It makes interesting reading though.

[Josh Dagreat]

Shamus Young's [...] article on his http://www.zenimax.com/external.php?locale=en-us&url=http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=15395, as I pretty much agree with everything he's saying - and he said it much better than I did.

A very fine blog entry. I agree with him 100%.

[Baby K(:]

they removed the final boss battle ending.. which was with the illusive man as being too gamey
the ending was changed.. they spent too much time on the multiplayer ending

and the only good ending is

Spoiler

if you have an EMS over 4000 [{5000 anderson can die} kept TIM from killing anderson and chose the destroy ending.. then you get a 20 second clip showing shepard in the rubble in london.. breathing.. this is the only good ending.. as the TIM wants control and Saren wanted synthesis.. you as Shepard were always going to destroy the reapers...

[Emma Copeland]

Spoiler

if you have an EMS over 4000 [{5000 anderson can die} kept TIM from killing anderson and chose the destroy ending.. then you get a 20 second clip showing shepard in the rubble in london.. breathing.. this is the only good ending.. as the TIM wants control and Saren wanted synthesis.. you as Shepard were always going to destroy the reapers...

Spoiler

Doesn't change that the whole galaxy loses transportation or blows up if we go by ME2 lore, my wife is stuck with Joker with whom to starve to death, every fleet on galaxy is orbiting Earth which inevitably leads to war, and a million other things that means NO ENDING is good in ANY WAY

[Grace Francis]

i agree
but all the endings are basically the same..

Spoiler

same joker running for his life and landing on that planet
and one of the ppl who were with me before the beam i saw die.. you can look back and see that.. was with joker on the planet- that the same planet that you see the man and boy

oh fyi
in ME1 Virgil tells shepard that reapers plan was to take over the citadel and cut power to all of the mass relays

and yes the ending -singular- was very bad simply made no sense at all
did not fit in with the story or any of your decisions
...they spent too much time with mutliplayer...
javik was orginally the catalyst then they turned him into a DLC

Spoiler

when the mass relays explode you have done the reapers work by killing most life anyways
and one more thing.. u r told that you will die since u r part synthetic if u chose destroy but... in the good ending u r alive and only get that ending if you do chose destroy.. that should mean the geth will not be destroyed nor will EDI

[Danii Brown]

Spoiler

Doesn't change that the whole galaxy loses transportation or blows up if we go by ME2 lore

Spoiler

I don't think so. In Arrival the Mass Relay was violently torn to pieces. The Crucible's shot used up the Mass Relay's energy and caused it to just fall apart. Or that's how it looked to me. I didn't see giant white explosion atleast

Also, Vigil in ME1 said that Protheans were about decipher Mass Relay technology when the Reapers hit them, and they did build the Conduit. The current races are pretty smart too and there's a lot of Mass Relay wreckage to go around, so i doubt that causes the end of galactic society, more like a moment of pause.

[Strawberry]

nu-clear-day, very well written sums up what i thought of it, didnt take me long to finish it and i did all the side quest and did the dlc, and that really expresses nicely what i thought of it.

No matter what people say about the article, supposedly from the writer from bioware, and how they have discredited it so quickly as being fake, as a matter of fact i would have been suprised if someone didnt leak details, if everyone on the staff towed the line and didnt speak out, with all the rest of the game being pretty much well done, why was the ending a stand out unless it was done by someone else, because no matter with all the bioware you need to think endings, there is no thinking, its a cutscene, short end and credits, its the end of a trilogy, you'd expect some sort of big cinematic ending, to an epic space saga not a fizzle and a burp and an excuse me. If i would have been involved in this with the fact that the rest of the game went so well and the ending so bad that it gave a very bad impression of their artistic integrity, and also how could they even claim that, id say most of that would have been sold down the drain years ago, otherwise you would come out and state the facts rather than cover it up, and run around doing damage management.

Oh and i never got to sit back on the beach with Liara and my blue babies.

[JAY]

Spoiler

I don't think so. In Arrival the Mass Relay was violently torn to pieces. The Crucible's shot used up the Mass Relay's energy and caused it to just fall apart. Or that's how it looked to me. I didn't see giant white explosion atleast

Also, Vigil in ME1 said that Protheans were about decipher Mass Relay technology when the Reapers hit them, and they did build the Conduit. The current races are pretty smart too and there's a lot of Mass Relay wreckage to go around, so i doubt that causes the end of galactic society, more like a moment of pause.

Fair points but it's not like it still makes sense

[Anthony Diaz]

So... long rant, I know. (Probably not a lot will read this, but it does feel good getting this off my chest. My Wife still hasn't finished the game, so I can't talk to her about it yet.) I'm not really all that bothered, truth be told. And if I didn't particularly enjoy the very end, I really did absolutely love everything leading up to it:

Spoiler

Honestly, I was on board literally up until the point the "catalyst" started talking about my choices.

This was pretty much how I felt. A great game, a great series, with some issues with each game, and then 5% "the Bioware team didn't actually think about the final-ending part".

But at the very end of ME3, I got this head-scratching "non-choice"

Spoiler

of kill, control or merge - which all had the same result really. And it took me a few days to decipher what was really bothering me about the ending. Bioware, over three games, with good character writing and so on, made me really love the Mass Effect world. I am not a sci-fi person normally, but I loved the world they built - the mass relays, the glimpses of other life forms, their cultures, etc., the idea of the ability of being able to zip around the galaxy, the potential of all that seemed, sort of romantic and intriguing to me, in a different way than a fantasy setting. And then they wrecked the world. The scene were the relays start to blow in sequence was actually depressing. Because it was unavoidable.

If one of the choices was "Destroy every last reaper, it will save everyone from this point, but it will destroy the relays and the Citadel", well, that would have been a valid choice, if I had one or two other options that were different to choose from.

Spoiler

Tacking on the very unneccessary and heavy-handed "also all synthetic life will be gone too" was incredibly stupid.How could the destruction of the citadel or relays control the Geth. Or EDI and destroy them? (And then they oddly make that the ending, depending if, in your single player game, you force yourself to play multi-player mode the only one where you can presumably see Shep take a breath, even tho Harbinger clearly notes that you are part synthetic too. *sigh*)

Other choices: "Save the galaxy, but

Spoiler

play god merging synthetic and organic" does present an interesting moral choice. There was no reason to blow the relays in that scenario Merged synthetic and organic life is so broad a term though. What about trees and stuff, they are organic? They needed to flesh out that idea (no pun intended) much much more in order to give the player something to pause over, to think about. To what degree are the changes to each form. If Shepard survived that choice, would he be a hero or hated? He chose for everyone... that could have been interesting. It was what Saren was trying to do, with really bad results. Shepard lives - but maybe he's vilified. Face it, a lot of people would be horrified at having the results of such a choice thrust upon them.

Or...

Spoiler

Controlling the reapers - again, a morally interesting choice. Would indoctrination still be something the reaper controlled shepard could do, or could he opt to remove that ability?And again, in that scenario, there is zero reason to destroy the relay system at all. If I am now controlling them, I am sending them back to dark space and assuming Shepard retains enough of himself, decommissioning every last one, so they leave the galaxy alone forever after, to grow and destroy themselves on their own dime. And then there is potential - since the Reapers are not destroyed... can some go rogue and break away from Shepard's control? Is the world not truly saved. Is some form of Shepard still accessible, like she or he is a glowy orb deep in the citadel? So she sort of lives?

I dunno, with some thought, I could have been presented with some actual choices. Not fake-choices that were all one ending.

I had a strong feeling that my Shepard would not make it, though I hoped to have a chance to save her, a sacrifice of that character, was not going to shock me. I knew I would probably lose a few characters I like -and I liked the folks from ME2 as much as I did the team from ME1. But I wanted to know that I saved something. And I feel like I didn't. I feel like I "lost" the game I stuck with through three chapters.

Spoiler

Shep died, presumably my crew died because the bizarre Normandy scene and people coming out of the ship that were with me on earth just doesn't make sense. The Citadel was destroyed. And ultimately the world, made accessilble and understandable with the Mass Relays, is destroyed. So no matter what I chose (and I too chose synthesis, as my character had sort of skewed that way), I lost. And up until that choice was presented, I felt like I had fought toward a goal - destroy the reapers, but save civilization for others, even if Shepard wouldn't be there to enjoy it. When I got there, the writers tricked me, because the goal was predetermined, or maybe it was just an ass-pull. Do one of three things with the reapers and lose the world anyway. Byeeee... here's a tacked on "epilogue" that has no logic. Oh, and a second epilogue that either asks you to buy DLC, or is saying it was all a dream-story anyway.

[Blaine]

I thought it was a really cool ending. A lot better than fighting a reaper with a pistol for crying out loud.

[Bethany Watkin]

Also - I kind of was expecting a final battle more akin to Mass Effect 2. I went in rather expecting that my Galactic Readiness score was going to have an immediate and measurable effect on how things were going to play out - and I didn't notice that it mattered at all. Given my druthers, I really would have preferred something similar to ME2; making choices, and where the decisions I'd made had a real effect on how the action played out. Which I just didn't see very much of.

I think this is what most were expecting. Peoria wanna see work pay off and when the last 5 minutes renders the last 3 games moot, well you seethe reaction. As far as a new ending goes I thing the "retake " movement should have. Been centered on getting an ending like this.

[kirsty williams]

So apparently some people who donated to childsplay becuase of ME3 want their money back. They thought it was paying for a new ending.
Now I think its a useless charity (much better to actually fund cures) but asking for money back from a charity!

Stay classy biodrones.

[Angus Poole]

I thought it was a really cool ending. A lot better than fighting a reaper with a pistol for crying out loud.

There is always one, isn't there.


What, exactly, did you find plausible in the ending? Who spoke about fighting Reapers with a pistol?

[Thomas LEON]

and the only good ending is [...]

Which is unachievable without going down the MP route, contrary to what they said. The maximum effective rating achievable without MP is apparently about 3,800, and even that's quite tricky.

i agree
but all the endings are basically the same..

I think it's not just that they're the same, but that regardless of what you did throughout the series, you get the same "choose A, B or C" (again, contrary to what they said would be the case.)

So apparently some people who donated to childsplay becuase of ME3 want their money back. They thought it was paying for a new ending.
Now I think its a useless charity (much better to actually fund cures) but asking for money back from a charity!

Stay classy biodrones.

I remain sceptical. Even if it's true, I'm highly suspicious about the rationale of such a claim being made at the height of things getting very political, and a number of people have indicated that a "high number" doesn't necessarily mean what is implied (if Paypal indeed said it at all.) I don't doubt the capacity for some people to behave in a sufficiently ill-considered manner as to ask for their donation back, but I smell a rat here, excuse the pun.

[Sam Parker]

Who spoke about fighting Reapers with a pistol?

Mass Effect 1. The final boss, that is in a sense Reaper, is easist to kill with a pistol

The final fight of ME3

Spoiler

at the missile trucks

was pretty difficult. More so than 1 or 2 bosses.

[LADONA]

Mass Effect 1. The final boss, that is in a sense Reaper, is easist to kill with a pistol

The final fight of ME3

Spoiler

at the missile trucks

was pretty difficult. More so than 1 or 2 bosses.

Pretty sure he wass talking about the boss at the end of ME2.

I dont know why nyone is using logic though. Mass effect sure as hell dosent.

[Heather beauchamp]

Mass Effect 1. The final boss, that is in a sense Reaper, is easist to kill with a pistol

Saren?.... At most you could call the ME2 boss a Reaper and even then it was a

Spoiler

Reaper fetus

no where near the full strength of Sovereign,

Spoiler

which took damn near the entire Alliance fleet to take down.

[sally R]

There is always one, isn't there.


What, exactly, did you find plausible in the ending? Who spoke about fighting Reapers with a pistol?

I was referring to the end of Mass Effect 2.

What is not plausible about the ending? A giant device was built that would destroy all synthetic life. You use it, synthetic life ends.

[Rob Smith]

Other choices: "Save the galaxy, but

Spoiler

play god merging synthetic and organic" does present an interesting moral choice. There was no reason to blow the relays in that scenario Merged synthetic and organic life is so broad a term though. What about trees and stuff, they are organic? They needed to flesh out that idea (no pun intended) much much more in order to give the player something to pause over, to think about. To what degree are the changes to each form. If Shepard survived that choice, would he be a hero or hated? He chose for everyone... that could have been interesting. It was what Saren was trying to do, with really bad results. Shepard lives - but maybe he's vilified. Face it, a lot of people would be horrified at having the results of such a choice thrust upon them.

I've noticed people mentioning this, but I've no idea where it's coming from. Saren made himself into a cyborg (or rather, Sovereign manipulated him into doing so in order to cement his control), but that was never his goal. His belief was that by aiding the Reapers, he could prove the worth of some organics and thus not all would be killed. He was attempting to maximize the survival rate in the only way he knew how. If one of the choices was supposed to reflect Saren's goal, it should have been servitude, not synthesis.

[Marcin Tomkow]

I feel like I "lost" the game I stuck with through three chapters.

Yes, that was my feeling, exactly. Yeah, a "downer ending" kind of svcked, but it was pretty telegraphed through most of the last parts of the game. But it wasn't just a Downer Ending.... it was a loss. And I didn't hero my way through three games, being led to care about all these characters/places/cultures, just to LOSE at the end.

-----
crossposted from the general thread:

Spoiler

BUT THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT. To trick you into thinking paragon (aka 'good') is to control the reapers!
....
That's why Control was painted in such a positive light

Spoiler

I'm not sure how anyone could ever think that there's anything remotely "paragon" about the Control option..... after all, the person held up as the symbol for that choice is the Illusive Man, who's spent the entire game crossing Moral Event Horizons and Kicking Puppies. While pushing the control theory. So the game spends a lot of time beating into your head that Control = Bad. There's no way that anyone playing the game could ever imagine anything good coming from that choice. Control would be the evilest choice by a long shot, if it weren't for the part where Synthesis kills everyone in the galaxy.

Spoiler

Control was painted in a positive light by the kid at the end. Control = Order, and Order = Paragon. Destroy = Chaos and Chaos = Renegade. That's what they want you to believe.

Nah, I don't buy it.

Spoiler

Sure, the kid said something about Control... and as he did, the image of the Illusive Man came up, as the exemplar of that option. Which means it was instantly painted as More Evil Than Evil?. No way in heck could anyone view that option as in the same zip code as "positive".

IMHO

[GabiiE Liiziiouz]

I've noticed people mentioning this, but I've no idea where it's coming from. Saren made himself into a cyborg (or rather, Sovereign manipulated him into doing so in order to cement his control), but that was never his goal. His belief was that by aiding the Reapers, he could prove the worth of some organics and thus not all would be killed. He was attempting to maximize the survival rate in the only way he knew how. If one of the choices was supposed to reflect Saren's goal, it should have been servitude, not synthesis.

He was only looking out for his survival, basically turning him into Sovereigns personal Keeper.