Morality of the Volkiharian Vampires : V

» Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:59 pm

This is a thought that came to my head while doing the side quests for the Vampire faction in Dawnguard. Without spoiling too much, you are occasionally called upon to slay lesser vampires that become too aggressive in feeding or are trying to turn too many people, what is to be expected of self proclaimed "vampire royalty" to do. This makes me think... Perhaps, the Volkiharian Vampires are doing more to contain and control the Vampire threat to the living than the Dawnguard in a way.

This goes back to the question of which is better, preventing crime or controlling crime. It could be said that, while their motives are very selfish, the Higher-born Vampires of Castle Volkihar are containing the Vampires in Skyrim and thus are a benefit to have around. They also do not seem keen on killing the living unless it is to deal with threats from groups like the Dawnguard.

Your thoughts people?

» Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:36 pm

I can see this topic being moved to the spoiler section but I will give my opinion on this.

I agree the thing is if the vampire population spirals out of control that would cause the humans to rise and destroy them and lets not forget if the thin bloods eat/kill everything then vampires will no longer have any more food so it would make sense that they would try to keep control. Honestly in my opinion there is no "right" answer.

» Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:22 pm

I just feel as though it will always be easier to control an evil rather than to eliminate it entirely. Sure, it's still evil, but imagine two drug dealers... One, sells to everyone he can, including kids, the other takes over the drug market, keeps it clean and prevents inner conflict, but imposes rules such as no selling to kids. The later drug dealer would be nicer to have around. Now imagine if there were police intervention, then there would be room for competition in the chaos and there would be people dealing to kids again. See where my point is coming here?

» Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:00 pm

interesting

» Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:34 am

I agree with you OP take morthal for instance movarth was going to turn everyone there into a vampire can you imagine what would have happened if the plan would have wen't through? just like harkons plan it would doom all vampires because the hunters will think "If vampires can take over towns then what of citys?" they would then raise a massive army and wipe us all out and im glad there is no option to help them as it would have sealed our undead fates.

» Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:12 pm

I don't fully believe neither side is truly "good" more like they are shades of grey, bordering black. Showing how obsession can lead even the most noble intentions astray.

Spoiler

The Volkihar while never truly good, at least most of those who can be assumed to be the founders are all obsessed with something to the point they lost themselves. Harkon, found that prophecy about the Tyranny of the sun and he slowly lost himself to going semi-mad searching for the answer. Long the way he lost himself, not caring the cost only caring about the end result never thinking about the in between or what it would cause.

Valerica, was always obsessed with her skills and necromancy as is show. As she found out Harkon's plans she become obsessed with gaining more power and stopping him. Nearly leading to her being taken by the Ideal Masters. In the process, like Harkon, her daughter became just another piece on the board, a pawn. She may have cared about protecting her, like a king on a chess board, but she lost sight of why she wanted to save Serana, only that she wanted to. Even as Serana says, she was always treated as more of an apprentice then a daughter.

And on the other end.

Spoiler

Isran is so obsessed with Vampires that he seems to have lost all traces of his humanity in the process. He only cares to stop them or kill them, not seeing that not every vampire is a threat or a willing subject, just that they are all vermin to be destroyed. To that end, he and Harkon share the same attitude in that they are so driven towards their goals they have lost sight of the cost or the why's of why he wanted to do in the first place. Its less about protecting people from vampires and more about just killing them. He is a hardliner so far that even the Vigilant of Stendarr made him leave and ya know their motto is "Walk always in the light or we will drag you too it."

He is so dangerously closed to becoming everything he tries to fight against, except in the living form. Just a complete careless disregard and slaughter. Every human emotion has been swallowed by his desire to kill all vampires. Its not mercy, its not helping anyone, its just outright slaughter.

Thats my take on it.

» Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:34 pm

Vampires, the higher-ups, never want the extra attention to their kind. In Skyrim, we see the Volkihar trying to kill of baser vampires. We also see Sybille Stentor sending the player out to kill savage vampires within the caverns. In Oblivion, Janus Hassildor does the same thing.

» Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:51 pm

I don't fully believe neither side is truly "good" more like they are shades of grey, bordering black. Showing how obsession can lead even the most noble intentions astray.

Spoiler

The Volkihar while never truly good, at least most of those who can be assumed to be the founders are all obsessed with something to the point they lost themselves. Harkon, found that prophecy about the Tyranny of the sun and he slowly lost himself to going semi-mad searching for the answer. Long the way he lost himself, not caring the cost only caring about the end result never thinking about the in between or what it would cause.

Valerica, was always obsessed with her skills and necromancy as is show. As she found out Harkon's plans she become obsessed with gaining more power and stopping him. Nearly leading to her being taken by the Ideal Masters. In the process, like Harkon, her daughter became just another piece on the board, a pawn. She may have cared about protecting her, like a king on a chess board, but she lost sight of why she wanted to save Serana, only that she wanted to. Even as Serana says, she was always treated as more of an apprentice then a daughter.

And on the other end.

Spoiler

Isran is so obsessed with Vampires that he seems to have lost all traces of his humanity in the process. He only cares to stop them or kill them, not seeing that not every vampire is a threat or a willing subject, just that they are all vermin to be destroyed. To that end, he and Harkon share the same attitude in that they are so driven towards their goals they have lost sight of the cost or the why's of why he wanted to do in the first place. Its less about protecting people from vampires and more about just killing them. He is a hardliner so far that even the Vigilant of Stendarr made him leave and ya know their motto is "Walk always in the light or we will drag you too it."

He is so dangerously closed to becoming everything he tries to fight against, except in the living form. Just a complete careless disregard and slaughter. Every human emotion has been swallowed by his desire to kill all vampires. Its not mercy, its not helping anyone, its just outright slaughter.

Thats my take on it.

Nice

.

» Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:29 pm

Vampires, the higher-ups, never want the extra attention to their kind. In Skyrim, we see the Volkihar trying to kill of baser vampires. We also see Sybille Stentor sending the player out to kill savage vampires within the caverns. In Oblivion, Janus Hassildor does the same thing.

Yes, but is this a bad thing? Overall, being able to control a problem from within is much easier than completely eradicating the problem.

» Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:35 pm

Vampires, the higher-ups, never want the extra attention to their kind. In Skyrim, we see the Volkihar trying to kill of baser vampires. We also see Sybille Stentor sending the player out to kill savage vampires within the caverns. In Oblivion, Janus Hassildor does the same thing.

As it should be thin bloods are disgusting :yuck:

» Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:50 pm

Yes, but is this a bad thing? Overall, being able to control a problem from within is much easier than completely eradicating the problem.

Its not a bad thing since there will always be vampires around as long as molag bal exists, before the dawnguard reformed I think the Volkihar vampires were still controlling the vampire population.

» Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:00 pm

Yes, but is this a bad thing? Overall, being able to control a problem from within is much easier than completely eradicating the problem.

Nope, not in the slightest. It is efficient and nescessary to cull the savages from the land. Though I think every vampire in the ES universe hate each other. In EVERY Elder Scrolls game that had vampires we always see a vampire vs vampire conflict with each other, either for protection of the self or just plain prejudice and rightful hatred.

As it should be thin bloods are disgusting :yuck:

Yes! Nothing but carriers of transmitted diseases.

» Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:12 pm

They want to block out the sun so they can [censored] and murder mortals 24 hours a day instead of 8-12.

I think that's pretty black and white.

» Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:40 am

They want to block out the sun so they can [censored] and murder mortals 24 hours a day instead of 8-12.

I think that's pretty black and white.

Harkon wants to block out the sun permanently the other vampires have to follow the will of the lord of the castle and harkon is the current lord, I bet if you could ask their opinion on it majority of the ones with a brain on their shoulders would say its a bad idea to permanently block out the sun.

» Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:19 pm

the vampire lords aren't intentionally doing the rest of the world any favors. their stance on lesser vampires only shows that they're stuck up elitists, but they're still monsters who enslave and feed on the mortal races.

» Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:21 am

They want to block out the sun so they can [censored] and murder mortals 24 hours a day instead of 8-12.

I think that's pretty black and white.

Isran is a jerkass who tortures, blindly kills, and thinks all vampires are inherently evil.

» Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:02 pm

They want to block out the sun so they can [censored] and murder mortals 24 hours a day instead of 8-12.

I think that's pretty black and white.

Not really, considering that only three of the vampires in the castle (the player character, Serana, and Harkon) are interested in the prophecy and of those three, the PC and Serana task themselves (sometimes unwillingly) to stop it.

Edit: Not to mention that absolutely NO vampires outside of the castle care about the prophecy.

» Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:41 pm

Isran is a jerkass who tortures, blindly kills, and thinks all vampires are inherently evil.

I wouldn't agree with the inherently evil bit necessarily myself. they are inherently predatory though which puts them in direct unavoidable conflict with their prey, which happens to be the mortal races.

» Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:43 pm

From my point of view, the Dawnguard are evil.

» Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:40 pm

I wouldn't agree with the inherently evil bit necessarily myself. they are inherently predatory though which puts them in direct unavoidable conflict with their prey, which happens to be the mortal races.

Yeah I can agree with that.

» Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:01 am

i would imagine that if deer were capable of higher thought and moral speculation, that they would think the wolves are evil and would likely also use any means they could think of to irradicate the threat to their survival.

on the flip side of that, if the wolves were capable of higher thought and moral speculation, they'd probably still eat the deer, recognizing the need for restraint and control if they wish to continue doing so as well.

» Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:52 pm

From my point of view, the Dawnguard are evil.

Then you are lost!

» Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:31 am

From my point of view, the Dawnguard are evil.

+1 for star wars reference :goodjob:

» Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:00 pm

. Thanks.

On topic: Vampires are a naturally deceitful, ambitious and power-hungry bunch. While there are some who feel as if they can live off in caves, there are a good number of those who live within castles, palaces and political offices to gain more power. In the process, they see lesser vampires as base creatures to be destroyed and weeded out. The Order clan calls other vampires barbaric savages(inbook and ingame such as Janus Hassildor). Sybille does too, as I mentioned already. They also seek to empower themselves at the expense of others, as we could see in Harkon's court.

You can say they are powered by treachery. The vampire on vampire relationship is always a dangerous game. Trust is encouraged even while it is sabotaged; loyalty is mandatory even while betrayal is prized; suspicion is more or less nourished even while honesty is praised. In any case, it was survival of the fittest.

» Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:43 am

. Thanks.

On topic: Vampires are a naturally deceitful, ambitious and power-hungry bunch. While there are some who feel as if they can live off in caves, there are a good number of those who live within castles, palaces and political offices to gain more power. In the process, they see lesser vampires as base creatures to be destroyed and weeded out. The Order clan calls other vampires barbaric savages(inbook and ingame such as Janus Hassildor). Sybille does too, as I mentioned already. They also seek to empower themselves at the expense of others, as we could see in Harkon's court.

You can say they are powered by treachery. The vampire on vampire relationship is always a dangerous game. Trust is encouraged even while it is sabotaged; loyalty is mandatory even while betrayal is prized; suspicion is more or less nourished even while honesty is praised. In any case, it was survival of the fittest.

Yes, but do mortals not also better themselves often in the political arena by betraying others? It might become more prevalent with Vampires after a few centuries as all they have is time. They are bound to outlive any bonds of fellowship they make as they are immortal. That is why it is so easy to associate such traits with them. Time changes them. However, they are only capable of such "evil" through being sentient beings, no different than mortals.