http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1345681-navmesh-bug/page__st__180__p__20343514__hl__navmesh%20bug__fromsearch__1#entry20343514 | http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1358688-navmesh-bugs-2/

New thread to continue discussion NavMesh related issues, patch efficacy, work-arounds, etc...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlNBVOcuW3M

A new beta patch v. 1.5.26.0.5 is now available on Steam, which seems to have addressed the navmesh problem that was causing CTDs for certain mods with 1.5.24.0.5.

Also, after testing a couple of mods that had the bug, not only are they no longer causing crashes, but NPCs seem to be using the navmesh properly, even after exiting and re-entering the cell. Need to test this a bit more to verify whether it has been fixed.

(In order to download Beta 1.5.26.0.5 you must click on Steam -> Settings -> Beta Participation -> Change -> Skyrim Beta Update)

Thanks for starting another thread Justin!

Amethyst Deceiver said:

"you would need something like tessnip to move the navmesh/cell datainto a new file. then esm-ify that like stated above."

I'm sure you're talking about the NAVI GRUP in TESVSnip, though I'm not sure where the cell info is located.

And how do you create the new file?

If I were to copy the mod and change the name to .esm it would retain all the same info.

EDIT:

Cell info is probably in the CELL GRUP...doh!

If they actually fixed this bug I really hope they release it soon.

Each cell with NavMesh info will have 'temporary' NAVM form(s), cell children much like REFR, ACHR, LAND, PHZD, PGRE, etc., all of which are also listed in an http://i.imgur.com/nFzcR.png).

I read where you guys were talking about that in the last thread.

And....it's where my eyes glossed over and I went into mental hybernation.

edit:

What I mean to say is that is all above my pay grade. It seems like rocket science if you haven't been a modder for a lengthy time.

I think rocket science would be pretty easy compared to this stuff. At least all the rockets are supposed to go up. I'm not sure where all of this is supposed to be going. Everytime I think I learn something, somebody comes along and says, "no, that's not right, it works like this." And everytime I try to do one of these fixes, something else strange happens in the CK that I never expect or understand. I'm so confused.

At least the new beta update has fixed my CTD problems - for now. But I think the npc's are acting pretty much like they did. Once I exit, jump two cels and come back, then if I get too far from Lydia, she just stops and stands there and looks at me till I come back to get her. And one of the blacksmiths in the Warehouse was just standing there looklng lost until I went over and triggered his merchant script, then he went back to work. But they don't have to move very far. Not sure yet.

Oh, and the cell info for the exterior cells in under the World grup. It took me a little while to figure that out and see that the cell references for the World cells don't always refer to the cell I think they should, but to the cell next door.

It was "fixed" by backing the changes out.

Small enough navmeshes may not make the bug stand out. However, my usual test in OCS Riften proves the previous behavior from 1.4.27 is back. NPCs get booted up to the balconies and can't navigate. Which is far more acceptable to me than CTDs obviously, but still not ideal. You can at least get around it by saving, quitting, then reloading.

So how is the new cell created that will take the nav info?

The common way of reproducing a cell (like duplicating aaamarkers) or ...?

If using a copied cell does that not carry the bugs with it?

If you have to delete stuff from the new cell what is it?

These are the questions I have about what the other guys have been talking about with the parent/slave workaround.

Personally, if Ma Beth already has a working Beta which seems to rollback the EXEs, I think trying to resolve this particular bug-strain anymore is kinda moot. If whatever they did to cause the CTD is being reversed, we may be better suited to going back and solving for the broken-AI-type navMesh bug (which Arthmoor confirmed has returned, as it should have if there were an actual rollback). If they ever revisit these new buggy changes, THEN we could come back to it.

But I'm either restoring the previous version or joining the beta... but first I'm going to release a quick version of my Player-Home with the NAVMs deleted (small price to pay in my particular case), for people to use until a new final patch is released. I am NOT gunna work on this 1.5 CTD-type bug anymore, unless someone can show me the value in it.

For those still interested, regarding these CTD-type bugs; my tests showed that a mod completely made with v1.5 will work, if you convert the plugin to ESM. There are a couple ways to do this, the way I use is TESvSnip, described in the other thread (linked at the top here). I think this is what you meant by a 'parent/slave' workaround, correct? But there seems to be strange limitations on navMesh when made in v1.5; part of the reason I am for abandoning it... indicating bugs we don't even KNOW what they affect yet...

I also found that if a mod was made pre1.5, the Vanilla NAVM references are what cause the CTDs (at least on MY system). The NAVI grup may be left intact, everything else the same - but deleting the nilla NAVMs fixes it for me (though I lose the changes to my navMesh by deleting them). Followers still come inside the home, but may not follow you to new areas in Vanilla which you had to delete. Converting a pre1.5 mod to ESM also seems to work (though it was with a tiny, focused test - and not with a big & real mod); BUT....

If I tried to finalize ANY Vanilla cell in a mod made pre1.5, even if that cell wasn't changed WHATSOEVER (I even tested this with NO doors or ANY additions), it causes CTD. I then tried copying only the Vanilla navMesh data from that test into a separate ESM, but it still CTD. I didn't work in this too long, as I saw the news about the beta rolling whatever back.

One thing you should be aware of if you ARE going to test for this bug or others; you have to enter the modded Vanilla cell, then fast travel away, then return. For ME, it crashes as soon as entering that cell (ie: fast-trav back crashes immediately). A different form of the bug happens when you enter your interiors, and not when fast-trav'ing back to the nilla area. For the 'main CTD bug', I found you do NOT have to enter your custom interiors, as they aren't what cause the crashes (AGAIN, this is on MY system, other people may be experiencing other circumstance). This is what MY testing has revealed, and there' s been contention as to what triggers what for who, and what works to fix it, etc.... I'm only telling you the findings I verified myself, but they may not help you (so be prepared for that possibility).

My point is mainly that just leaving then returning (through doors) may not properly test for the bug; it tests for a FORM of the bug (I described it in the previous thread), which may be fixed, but the MAIN bug is triggered only after cells are reloaded (which requires you to adequately leave the area, thus unloading the cell). But simply going in and out of doors usually does NOT trigger the main bug, as the cells usually remain loaded between those transitions... and just for that very reason - you are anticipated to go in and come right back out (at least part of the time), so to save having to reload every cell every time you go through a door, they kinda 'cache' em. There was actually a mod for Obliv which reset cells each time you changed to a new one or went through a door (to flush the texmem and reset the grids)... I wonder if something like that could be of value in all this Skyrim testing...

But I'm kinda startin' to confuse MYSELF... so I'll stop talking now... carry on!

@SLuckyD

Can you explain to me the steps to make an esp a slave to an esm?

I's appreciate it

As I stated above...do I duplicate a cell, like aaamarkers then save, then change it to an esm and copy the NAVI info into it from my mod?

So, am I correct in understanding nothing has changed since the very beginning when we had to resort to .esm to overcome the Navmesh bug and that house mods (with custom Navmesh) still cannot be placed on Steam Workshop (because of esm)?

yeah, we went through 2 seasons of the NAVI Shore reality show, and now season 3 is back where season 1 left off. this show svcks.

here's my TV guide recap for those just tuning in:



In season 1 we had Daddy Navibug hanging out and making all the people like fools stuck in their cells

he also had a kid in this season Navibug Jr I. cause errors regading "balance for optimization"


season 2 premiered, Daddy Navibug got married, but the wifey turned into Bridezilla and cause LOTS of drama (CTDs all over the place).

Their kid was taken to child services and Daddy Navbug was voted off the island, leaving Bride of Navbug to wreak havok alone in the Navi Shore. There is some speculation that Bride of Navbug had an affair and birthed an illegitmate kid (missing interiors bug), but that may in fact just be the result of her STD's (dirty save games caused by her)



In season 3, Bride of Navbug was voted off the island, and now Daddy Navbug has returned... back where we left off in season 1.



i swear reality tv writers have no imagination.

The show svcks even though the actors are "A" listers :/

Thank you for verifying what I was having a hard time believing!

Can someone please re-explain how to get a slave/parent relationship between an esp file and an esm file.

Like how to "ESMify"

I'm about as confused as a blonde at a mensa meeting.

I was wondering what you meant in the other thread when you said this "reality tv show svcks" lol. Now I know.

Amethyst Deceiver said:

"you would need something like tessnip to move the navmesh/cell datainto a new file. then esm-ify that like stated above.

then open the ck with skyrim.esm and your bona fide mod.esm as masters. set your cut esp to active and save. this will automatically slave it to the esm.

like i said this may not be ideal or stable in the long run but player should be able to keep all their stuff"

I remember how to "esm-ify" the esp.

But do I copy the GRUP CELL and NAVI to a copied cell with the extension changed to .esm?

Do I delete everything in the new file?

After I copy these two groups do I then delete them from the esp?

I've tried to copy a cell, rename it to .esm and copied the CELL and NAVI info into it and CK says there's a problem with the header and asks to change it.

thats normal, let the CK fix the header record count

Ok

I've tried a number of things to get a parent/slave relationship between the esp and esm.

On each attempt I still get the CTD.

I think I'm either not copying the correct data or not enough. I've also deleted from the esp what I had copied to the esm.

EDIT:

Another thing that's happening, as I tweak my methods, is that the load door to the mod in Tamriel won't take you into the mod. It just says open/close.

I wonder what the size threshold might be.

Had a chance to test a few mods today that exhibited the navmesh bug previously, including:

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=10738,
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=16688,
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=13443,
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=9029,
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=12243,
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=18260,
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=11486
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=17807 (the one Giskard used to illustrate the problem in patch 1.4.27.0.4 in http://youtu.be/S1mmm9gyJEQ )

From what I can tell, beyond the fact that the game is no longer crashing as it was with 1.5.24, there seems to be some sort of additional difference from 1.4.

Three mods contained cells that did not show any evidence of the navmesh bug at all. Aezeal's Flying Fortress, Wizards of Winterhold, and Moonpath to Elseweyr. In these cells, follower and NPC actors seemed to behave properly, even after going two or three cells away and then returning. I wonder what it is about these particular cells that results in no navmesh bug problems. Is it because of the size of the navmesh, or something to do with the room bounds perhaps?

- Tested three different cells in the Moonpath to Elseweyr mod. Elseweyr Hideout had the navmesh bug. Elseweyr Estuary (elseweyrcanyon) and Tenmar Den (AnvilDen) did not show any sign of the navmesh bug, despite repeated testing. It was possible to conjure summoned creatures, command NPC followers to move to specific spots and all the NPC actors moved around these two cells normally.

- The navmesh for all of the cells in Wizards of Winterhold worked properly except for one area, the Hall of Knowing. In all the other cells, it was possible to conjure summoned creatures and both followers and NPCs moved about normally.

- One cell in Aezeal's Flying Fortress had no navmesh problems, tincancave.

Every cell in the other tested mods suffered from the navmesh bug.

In the Legacy of the Tyrants mod, for example, after exiting, entering another cell and returning, it is still possible to cast of conjuration spells and followers enter and proceed as far as the first room. However, followers do not proceed beyond the first room and it is not possible to command them to move to specific spots. All of the NPCs move around, but they are restricted to the room they spawn in and cannot climb or descend stairs.

For three of the four dungeons in Wheeze's Dungeon Pack, my follower would not enter the dungeon upon re-entering and for the other (Necrothius Cavern), my follower would enter, but would not follow me through the entire dungeon. Enemies would not move around properly, either, and it was not possible to cast conjuration spells anywhere.


So the navmesh problems completely disappear if you save while standing in the problematic cell and then reload the same savegame? Or is it necessary to exit to a vanilla cell first?

When you reload the game the NavMesh reloads. I do not think you need to go into a vanilla cell... but don't quote me on that...

Not completely, no. You would be subject to them again if you left the area and came back, just as before. It just restores them while you're there. Which lets the idiots come down off their balconies and stuff long enough to do whatever you're doing.

Great to hear! Seems like an easy workaround for the time being.