this is the worst reality show ever

Interesting. (I knew she was lying when she said size doesn't matter, but I digress...)

I wonder where the cutoff point is?

Let me pose another scenario if I may. (I'm still trying to make sense of this like many of you.) But what if I built several new dungeons and navmeshed them. But I didn't finalize the exterior navmesh where my new teleport markers are placed. In fact, let's say I didn't edit any vanilla navmesh at all (other than the triangles where my teleport markers are which I would assume are considered "edited" because they have a new marker on them), but there were still several new dungeons (4 to 6) that were navmeshed. Would this work, or most likely be bitten by the bug? I guess what I'm asking is that is this more prone to happen with exterior navmesh, or new, non-vanilla interior navmesh?

You'd be bitten and bitten hard. That's too large an area not to notice your navmeshes aren't in fact working.

I should clarify that's what I meant. Your covering the fireplace isn't actually working. The edit is just too small to actually notice it has a problem when the NPCs are there. The navmesh still reverts back to the unedited vanilla state, which obviously worked before.

I think beth's navmesh fix was what was creating the CTDs and when they reverted it it brought the return of the NavMesh bug with it.

In my ruthless conservation of time, I found myself looking at the game in full-screen mode with an intensely annoying flickering edge around it. After about 30 minutes of ignoring the problem, I closed the interior cell editing window in SkyCK, and the problem went away.
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10 things come from this:
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0. What the problem is if you come across it (Just mentioned)
1. A very reliable way to raise system stress and stress the resource management into the

[ BUG ZONE ]

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(DDT? Anyone?)
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So I was able to get those mannequins really hopping and, this time, the unscheduled program terminations (UPTs) or "CTD"s were also triggered by other events - including a door teleport from one internal cell to another internal cell - which disappeared on reload. I also saw my first actual frame stutter since I got Skyrim. That would be in addition to the frame transition blur - which I think is done with a little vision tunneling or increasing blur with attenuation (distance from the cross-hair). A suggestion from http://www.gamesas.com/user/766649-amethyst-deceiver/ made on my http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1358332-caught-mischievous-mannequin-monkey-business-on-camera/ actually made a really big difference as less lights per object model meant less monkey-business.
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http://www.gamesas.com/user/764276-sluckyd/, those tri-count errors sound familiar. There used to be an http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/450979-what-in-dagons-name-is-the-significance-of-220-inter-grid-connections/page__p__3735423#entry3735423 which would be raised in the Construction Set for Oblivion. I honestly don't know if it's relevant, but you never know. I also used to just love making huge interior cells because of that open feel they have, but these can be, ah, "challenging" to optimize. I've since found that it is better to split an interior across multiple cells wherever:

• lighting behavior changes (i.e above ground interior transitioning below ground)
  
• architecture changes, especially between incompatible architecture
  
• access level changes (i.e when transitioning from silver key/pass zone to gold key/pass zone)
  Etc.

Thankfully, Roger the Donkey hasn't paid my plug-in a visit yet. Touch wood. Not that I'm superstitious. Touch lots of wood. In fact I'm not superstitious at all. Touch a whole pile of wood! The current version of SkyCk running on my Vista x64 system is 1.5.24.0 and the game is at 1.5.24.0.5 but the plug-in I'm currently working on began when Skyrim and SkyCk were in the 1.4s. I don't know if that means Steam's delivered me the new Beta yet but, as they say in Eire, Wherever you go, there you are.
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http://www.gamesas.com/user/766649-amethyst-deceiver/ also mentioned using large NavMesh triangles. I expect this would reduce tri-count and it does raise an interesting question of optimum size for NavMesh triangles. In my own experience it seems that if they are too small or too narrow, actors can have a hard time navigating with them.
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So now I'm off to see what happens next...

tried playing with a mod that was working on (started with 1st CK and continued under latest and Skyrim v1.5) and that always crashed my sytem on trying to load a save .... based on the info on tri-count I started deleting and smothing out the various triangles, had over a 1000 in the cell building when started, at the end was down into the mid 900s. So activated the mod as an esp and loaded the game and wonders of wonders the game loaded, a 1st for this mod. Next did a coc to the place and it loaded .. well sorta .. where enter the walls and all where there but at the bottom of the stairs there was this blue nothing there veiw. Well was there so figured I'd walk through it since what was on the other side of that blue was firing arrows at me, went through and the next section of the dungeon loaded but the one behind (where came from) was now blue. Unfortunately that was it as the door out into the rest of the place was blue and although could hear it open when pulled chain unable to go through and continue checking ... could see a great world of blue with flames and arrows all over the place as the parties within were having a great time roasting each other, just couldn't get there to help. now to figure out what might be blocking going forward and causing the 'am i blue' feeling.

So might be something to the number for tri-count ....

I've been reading through this thread because the CTD bug was a game changer for me. I almost gave up modding with Skyrim altogether until it was actually explained how to false-flag the esp to make the game think it's an esm (setting Flag 1 in TESVSnip to 000000001 by double clicking on TESV4).

After setting the flag to 1 I think it solved the CTD issue, at least until Bethesda has a fix.

The only downside looks like it will be that I can't use Steam Workshop any longer.

I haven't modded since Castle Wolfenstein...dang they've made things a lot more complicated since then

BTW...since this is a "house" mod I couldn't just rename the file to .esm without the player losing everything in their chests...If anyone is actually playing my mod lol

EDIT...

Now I have a separate problem. With the mod false-flagged the game doesn't see any new changes made to the Tamriel portion of the mod where the entrance is, actually NO changes can be made to the mod once the flag has been set. No big deal as I am with it anyways..it is just a side note.

Edit again...

Actaully TESVSnip locks the esp and I have to shut it down for any changes to actually save in the CK.

I'd use the CK instead (change extension to ESM, load as "Active", *save) to ESM'ify as it won't leave all the CELL forms un"Compressed" as TESVSnip will. Unticking the flag with TESVSnip (necessary to further edit w/ CK) will do the same thing, but saving w/ CK will re-zlib 'em.

*after saving, you can upload a bona fide master to the Workshop (see http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=7502) and it'll retain the internal ESM flag yet its extension will be reverted to ESP resulting in a false flag ESP for subscribers. Don't try to edit after saving, though, or the CK will crash.

Note: A plugin flagged internally as ESM cannot be set as "Active" by the CK regardless of its file extension.

I've been testing a few mods that had the navmesh bug after updating to Beta version 1.5.26.0.5.

From what I can tell it seems that this new beta patch has now fixed the problem. At the very least there is no more CTD upon re-entering the cell, and the NPCs now appear to be correctly maneuvering around the new cells in the .esp file.

Any suggestion for another mod with known navmesh bug I can check for testing?

How do you load as Active and save in the CK if the file is an ESM?

EDIT:

I ask this because you state "change extension to ESM, load as "Active", *save"

@Fragginborn
You can simply toggle the esm-file active in the data files -window.

...'cause its internal flag isn't checked at that time...

Bold = ESM flag ticked/Not currently possible to set as "Active"

BonaFide.ESM
FalseFlag.esm
FalseFlag.ESP
BonaFide.esp

I see what you guys are saying.

Yea...that was the 1st thing I tried but the player will lose everything in the house doing it that way. At least it did when I tried it.

That's because the extension counts as part of the name to a save file, so YourPlugin.esp native forms are not associated with those within a YourPlugin.ESM which is seen as a brand new plugin.

I'm not sure I understand you.

Are you agreeing that esm'fying the file won't work for payer chests?

Or....?

NPCs may seem to be maneuvering correctly at first, but what happens when you leave the area far enough for it to unload and then come back? If they reverted the fix, then the NPCs should lose their ability to move and may end up in a variety of silly places.

It'll work, but stuff in the chests from the ESP version will not be there (in YourSave.ess) in the ESM version as the ESP version and state of its REFRs are ...forgotten in its absence/if its extension changes to ESM.

if your mod is originally an esp and you re-upload as an esm, everything will be lost, as the game save will not recognize the new esm as the same mod, it will be treated as a completely brand new mod and reset everything to default.



you may consider only placing navmesh data in the esm, and leave everything else in a slaved esp. this may not be the ideal setup but at least players wont lose their stuffs.

Exactly.

That's why I'm thinking of re-releasing the mod as an esp with the esm flag set.

I tested it by exiting to Skyrim exterior, entering other cells and then returning to Skyrim exterior and then back to the original cell added by the mod.

The NPC actors seem to be moving about normally. My follower also seemed to be using the navmesh properly.

If you are familiar with any other mods with known navmesh bug, please let me know. At the very least, it seems that the navmesh issue is no longer causing CTD with the beta 1.5.26.0.5

as a precaution you may ask your players to remove all their belongings from the chests before installing the new esp just in case.

I read where you guys were talking about this but no-one said the method to do it

Yeah, YourSave.ess won't know the difference between YourPlugin.esp and YourPlugin.ESP.

you would need something like tessnip to move the navmesh/cell datainto a new file. then esm-ify that like stated above.

then open the ck with skyrim.esm and your bona fide mod.esm as masters. set your cut esp to active and save. this will automatically slave it to the esm.

like i said this may not be ideal or stable in the long run but player should be able to keep all their stuff

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1358688-navmesh-bugs-2/page__view__findpost__p__20541895

You don't have to upload to the Workshop though as you can always just change the extension to ESP after ESM'ifying with CK.