The title is missing "SMITHING" perk tree .....

Here is my proposal for a realistic smithing perk tree , what do you think about ? It is surely more complex and would allow a more focused selection in the crafting , plus will allow players to craft almoust anything , but also consume the perks so that they cannot become overpowered ... you become more specialized in working certain things or ore types etc as well as so allowing also art styles to give a much wider selection of armor types ....

this woudl allow for example to craft Iron Daedric armors , or Gold Nordplates .... according to styles , ore type materials and type of armor so would be determined the characteristics of the creations ....

this will mean that no more dwemer is better than steel , celestial steel better than iron etc but will depend on the crafting abilities , ore type , design etc so you coudl basically have a daedric iron armor that is on pair of another iron or slightly better ... some armors could provide more agility tlike the elven material moonstone but at the same time allowing more enchanteability but less protection paired with a harder work time and rarity of the ore ...
Edit : New perk tree version
Further refinement and improving of the PErk tree ...

http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/475/smithingtree2.jpg

the previous was a bit messy in the constellation so now is better arranged ...

I am considering also to add the following changes:

• Smithing will no more be a shortcut to increase level as it will still give xp but not that much as befoure , but also the other items will give xp while befoure not all did ....
  
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• Smithing will have to be payd service or use service , for a limited time you can make use of the forge that is not of your property ...
  
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• Time will pass faster when you forge according to the difficulty of the task making an iron dagger will take less time than making a dragon armor....

Old sketchs :


http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/5492/smithingtree.jpg

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/6645/craftingperktree.jpg

I dunno how much of this is doable that's why the thread but This is how I woudl like to be the crafting more or less....

I really don't think this is doable. Also, in order to max out the tree, you'd have to be completely dedicated to crafting, and nothing else.

Yes that's the point ,

1 make it realistic

2 make it selective and focused

3 remove the bugged overpowering throught smithing

you can become a smith full time or a warrior or amagician etc ... you have to choose ... or you can dedicate to a favourite armor type style , ore working and type of item creation ...

That's one scary perk tree
I do like the idea of crating anything out of anything and limiting the player's specialization, blacksmithing as it stands now needs more personality and this might just be it. That tree would require a load of perk points though, any idea of how getting around that? Also, I fear it might encourage min/maxing powergamers.

It woudl require a lot of perks but not ofall ... infact players will never be able to master everything , unless they become a smith fulltime ... this woudl not encourage maxing powergamers anyway because it woudl in the end give the same effects of the actual smithing in terms of power but to reach that overpowering you will have to renounce to a lot of other perks in the other game perk trees thus making this route not really preferable....

then it woudl also allow a more interesting gameplay enhancement couse now the smiths will have an actual role when you go buy something you cannot craft ... etc etc...

I think it opens a huge load of possibilities as well as the alloy perk would allow for advanced material mixing ... what woudl come out from mixing malachite and steel or moonstone ebony and gold?

Plus you could have steel elven armors , bronze elven armors , daedric elven armors , etc etc ...

The Tree itself aswell as according recipes and items would be all doable in the CK. Problem is as of now actually modifying the smithing menu in terms of what categories are shown is very difficult/impossible since not supported in the CK itself. The Problem of Perk Points could be solves by making some Perks acquireable by solving Quests/Readig Books.

My personal opinion though is that too much complexity does not make much sense for a single player game, since crafting here is merely a means of getting items for personal use and thus I'd not use such a mod. A Perk Tree that complex though would be lovely in a TES Based MMO so players could be all sorts of specialized weapon/armor smith's giving each of them a real market so the specialization makes sense since specialists would be needed.

As Modding Project this is extremely interesting though and I wish you the best of luck.

I can't do all alone I think I woudl need someone more expert in editing the prk tree to help , so I could work on the armors variations stuff...

It's an interesting tree concept, though I don't believe all of these need to be perks. All the art items, for instance, can be spell tomes that players can acquire through playing the game, either by buying, stealing, discovering or being given them by NPCs. Similarly, some of the 'buttons' aren't so much perks but categories for the subsequent perks (e.g., alloy and advanced materials, advanced organ, bones, chitin).

Finally, looks like you're missing leather?

What's your thinking behind the actual benefits from the material perks? In your concept, would these unlock the player's ability to use the material, or would they simply provide a benefit towards crafting materials of that type?

I very much agree that the smithing tree needs to force more choices on the player. At the moment, it's possible to get every perk without really trying, and one master smith is indistinguisable from any other.

I think that leather coudl go into pelts and furs , while studded leather shoudl require basic metal working and pelt working to create for example studded leather armors or the scale armors ....

the benefits woudl be to open the crating of this kind of armor types ... like for example also different kind of pelts and furs coudl give different type of light armors variations with some bonuses or not , like a mammooth fur could be heavier than a wold fur but provide more protection , a white bear coudl be the same of a brown bear but provide a different graphical look ... a scale armor made of bronze and deer pelt may look different statistically and graphically from a steel and dragon skin scale armor ...

Artistry coudl allow for example embellishments of armors , the refining , open the study field of racial styles so that once you know how to make a iron armor you can do in the racial style you like like steel orc armor or steel elven armor etc....

Crafting 300, or as it is now know as,Armoury of Tamriel, kinda dose what you want Proth.

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1346520-relwip-armoury-of-tamriel-thread-11/page__hl__crafting+300__fromsearch__1

What I do not like of that mod is that adds new stuff without considering vanilla assets as basic so it is not usable as modder resource , but you either accept it as is or you scrap it ....


but yes to an extent does what I wrote up but it contaminates with other off from vanilla or lore stuff ...

I have not read all the posts, forgive me. I have looked only in the Perk Tree and was confused. It took a while to understand what you want. But i think it is hard work.
You have thought a lot about it, I see. You have done careful consideration of your Perk Tree. It is a very good idea, but it could be extremely difficult to realize it.

This is a huge project. I wish you endurance, a helpful community and good luck.

In this case I will be not helpful. But I will keep an eye on this thread.

may be I could give a cutting to the tree perk and see a simplification . like reduce the severall elven to something different , as was sugested by the armory of tamreil mod , a well togught one is call ornate the glass and Dunmer the ebony ...

now I guess I 'll care for this at a "scholar point " , tweaking the flux ... but make all the variations made by that other mod would be a waste of time and resource for remaking the wheel ... and that other mod is already very well made , the only thing is that it doesn't touches armors "yet" and the perk system is altered just in the naming and not expanded ...

Ok I have tought on this a lot more and I have simplified a lot , as indeed the first version was too complicate ... now should be way more realistic ... and I may actually use this as base for all my weapons , I hope that a mod like the Armory of tamriel woudl like to use it as it woudl enhjance a lot his and other mods ... this could serve as a basic realistic start for other mods alike ...


Let me know your ideas comments and opinions ...


http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/5492/smithingtree.jpg

That's much, MUCH better.
Are you planning on modelling and implementing all other races armor and decoration? I'm not personally fond of simple retextures (wich are usually recolors mind you) to represent different materials.
I know it is a lot of work but you could get a whole team together for that! Just wish I could help you but a drunk monkey could model better than I can.

Not planning on modeling as Baratan is already doing an amazing work , I hope tough he coudl adapt my smithing version as his version actually is limited just to materials and renaming of the perks ... this could provide a much more indeep specialization , he also is planning armors , I just woudl like to have this as base for modders to build upon all weapon , armor and other stuff crafting ....

I will work on the new perk tree asap ....

Refined the tree with new Glass smithing perk regarding : Obsidian , Amber , Malachite , Ebony .

Added several other ore elements :

Amber
Obsidian
Jade
Ivory
Bronze ( shoudl or coudl be Dwarven actually unless is considered brass )
Copper
Coal
Folded Steel
Wood
Differentiated Pelts and hides
Animal bones
etc...

Here the new refined sketch ....

http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/5492/smithingtree.jpg

Also the idea is to be able to use the forges and the stuff only if you contrct a payment "per hour" from the owner

you can Ask the smith to perform something for you at "double cost" and his ability if possible

You will spend time forging causing time to pass according to the difficulty of the item created forged , smelted refined or tanned ...

This time it is much easier to understand the tree.
It is a good idea to pay for the forge per hour, it is more logical than the other way. The smith do not know you, but let you use his forge... thought always it is a bit crazy, especially on the beginning of the game...

Another to be added material set and alchemical elements are dyes , the source shoudl usually be natural or mineral , then worked in alchemy lab and create the dyes , those can be used for variying leather colors , and textile colors for the ones that will play with clothing and cape making stuff ...

WOW, this is a brilliant idea.

It's still too much in my opinion. Using two perks (decoring, human style) just to achieve a certain look is too much. Decoring should just be one perk in my opinion. Also, the success of this mod hinges upon the quality of the added assets added for armor and weapons. I won't use armory of tamriel because it reduces everything to generic shapes that are recolored. It feel unrealistic to me. I also don't like the idea of making Daedric nord armor or steel dwarven armor. Having several styles (both heavy and light, maybe tiers of each as well) for iron, steel, elven etc is very appealing to me though.

I personally think the best way to handle this is to change the game's perk leveling system (I wrote this somewhere else) to give two perk point types: A Combat Perk Point and A Non Combat Perk Point.

The reason for this is because it gives you the opportunity to separate the two individual playstyles, while still allowing for diversity and great mods like this to work well. Combat playstyle and non combat
playstyle are VERY DIFFERENT from each other in Skyrim, and don't really hinge on each other that much. The only exception to this might be smithing, but that's something else. But basically non combat
perks usually deal with things that make you more financially abundant or managing social aspects of the game. Combat perks are only for combat, no other use. They should be separated.

This sort of system would also allow people to expand the current perk trees and add more stuff without worrying so much about people never being able to use them.

This is not realying on any mod and will not add any variation to vanilla , it is supposed to give the basics for other modders to build over , so that they will be able to adapt their mods to it , Allthe vanilla weapons and stuff will be redirected throught the new perk system , so a glass armor will require a glass mineral working

as for the decorative perk that's mostly on refining , infact allows the refinements and eventually improvements of a weapon or armor if someone wants to design his own weapon in upgradeable way for example so that you can add or remove embeautyshments m add or change jewels , etc you can do with this perk , the styles instead open for a whole different spectrum of racial and stylistic appearences of the weapons and armors .... if you will study the Dunmer ( elven category) style then you will be able to build a iron basic armor in that style , and when you will have glass you will be able to do so , but of course only if someone did the mod, if not then you will just be able to make the elven typical armors from Vanilla ... I do not plan to spend time to make each single variation as there are already people doing this but I mayadapt some of my mods to this in order to have a more realistic crafting ....

also people can focus on creating their own furnitures or their own clothes .... and if someone has the willpower and the creativity to make a mod of different clothes and robes all dyed differently will find in this mood a solid base to build over....

Personally, I like Balanced Smithing: http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/downloads/file.php?id=10106

I would make one change, if I could (or if I wanted to go back and remod every time a new version was released): I would remove the daedric perk, or make it a quest unlock. I think that daedric gear should be limited to rare artifacts, and I do not think that there is enough of a "smithing story line" in the way I play skyrim for me being able to make daedric gear.

Anyways, I do not think that my game benefits from having complex dependency sequences before I can make items...