Player vs NPC power disparity, and why it is broken

Post » Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:23 am

The real problem I experience is wild differences in difficulty from one enemy to another. I turned the difficulty up because every enemy I came across was too easy, even tho I've purposefully kept myself weaker to keep thee game more challenging. Then all of a sudden I come across a boss who one shots me, over and over and over with no way to over come besides smithing and enchanting god like equipment that breaks the rest of the game.
User avatar
Da Missz
 
Posts: 3438
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:42 pm

Post » Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:02 am

The real problem I experience is wild differences in difficulty from one enemy to another. I turned the difficulty up because every enemy I came across was too easy, even tho I've purposefully kept myself weaker to keep thee game more challenging. Then all of a sudden I come across a boss who one shots me, over and over and over with no way to over come besides smithing and enchanting god like equipment that breaks the rest of the game.
I've never been a fan of boss battles for exactly this reason, and I'm willing to bet that if they hadn't implemented bosses as such then there would have been no need for the extremes to which we can improve our equipment, which in turn would have made for significantly more balanced encounters. We'd probably still stomp the mooks, but then they're supposed to be (relatively) easy kills.

It would also help if they would get away from the +/- HP/DMG difficulty model, because it just doesn't work. What they should do is make it so that increasing the difficulty improves the AI, and/or improves their gear, however the latter runs the risk of causing the 'Daedric Bandit' problem all over again and should be used sparingly at best.
User avatar
Tamika Jett
 
Posts: 3301
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2007 3:44 am

Post » Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:17 pm

They can't have the dragon born follow the same rules as NPC. Cheap unbalanced skills such as paralyze and illusion spells aside, the true difference is processing requirements.

To fully process each effect on the dragonborn (standstones, artifacts, cool downs, health and mana regenerate, armor calculation, perk activation chances and so on) and then multiple it fully by the number of NPC on screen all in realtime would take rather significant processing power. And we have not included path find and combat AI requirements for each NPC. That is why NPCs appear to use simpler rules, to reduce computing requirements.

Ultimately, the goal of the game is to have fun, in the end i doubt you really want to be Frenzied by some NPC into killing Lydia.
User avatar
marie breen
 
Posts: 3388
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 4:50 am

Post » Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:59 am


I've never been a fan of boss battles for exactly this reason, and I'm willing to bet that if they hadn't implemented bosses as such then there would have been no need for the extremes to which we can improve our equipment, which in turn would have made for significantly more balanced encounters. We'd probably still stomp the mooks, but then they're supposed to be (relatively) easy kills.

It would also help if they would get away from the +/- HP/DMG difficulty model, because it just doesn't work. What they should do is make it so that increasing the difficulty improves the AI, and/or improves their gear, however the latter runs the risk of causing the 'Daedric Bandit' problem all over again and should be used sparingly at best.

They went in the right direction giving some Dragr shouts. Makes the "bosses" more difficult by giving them another tool to use against you. Problem being they still relied primarily on increased Hp and damage to make a mob more difficult.

I still think the problem comes down to scaling. It's harder to properly scale a more dynamic boss then one who is more powerful simply because they hit harder and can take more hits.

The way it is now most "boss" fights are simply longer, not necessity harder.
User avatar
Rachyroo
 
Posts: 3415
Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:23 pm

Post » Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:25 pm

If your finding this game easy your cheating. Im lvl 34 on Adept playing a bladesman/archer who sneaks n steals. Plenty of enemies still one hit me.

If your complaining that its not a challenge to kill a wolf, GTFO. Whats a wolf to a guy who slays dragons...
User avatar
Scarlet Devil
 
Posts: 3410
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 6:31 pm

Post » Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:10 pm

One thing to keep in mind is that you can't loot HP. Upping their toughness by giving them more health instead of legendary daedric armor achieves roughly the same effect, but doesn't break the game's economy or make smithing obsolete by flooding you with top notch gear.

Weapon damage though is another matter, but there are other ways to improve NPC damage besides giving them awesome weapons. I haven't looked at any of the NPCs in an editor yet, but I'm guessing that even if their weapon skills scale up as they level, they probably don't get any perks. With 5 ranks of damage increase, you'll get 200% damage, which, multiplied by the 50% increase you get from 100 weapons skill, means 300% total damage increase. NPCs are stuck with the 50% from skill alone. So adding perks would help keep NPCs a bit more powerful later in the game.

Smithing can roughly double weapon damage, and enchanting can almost triple it, so you're still going to be looking at a discrepancy, but it would still be a big step up.

Except you could give them a custom ability which fortifies their armor, leaving the economy unchanged, and them slightly tougher :)

Likewise you can give them the necessary perks...
User avatar
Cagla Cali
 
Posts: 3431
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:36 am

Post » Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:10 pm

NPC's have destruction magic damage that scales. Why don't we?
honestly I don't understand this at all how did they overlook the fact that every skill scales except destruction even worse it scales fir npcs
User avatar
A Dardzz
 
Posts: 3370
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 6:26 pm

Post » Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:43 pm

NPC's have destruction magic damage that scales. Why don't we?
What is the evidence that their damage scales?
User avatar
Astargoth Rockin' Design
 
Posts: 3450
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 2:51 pm

Post » Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:57 am

What is the evidence that their damage scales?

Go charging at them with Steadfast Wards periodically. Eventually, you'll find they start cracking it even with the Flamethrower spells. (Or find a Wisp mother, they have an ice spike that shatters it at any level)

Either it scales, or they have access to extra sets of spells.
User avatar
Laura Shipley
 
Posts: 3564
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:47 am

Post » Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:33 am

The thing is, that in the end....many poor design decisions were made or migrated unaltered from previous titles.

The new Perk system, among other things made the all too common mistake of increasing things by multipliers and percentages, when logically they are the worst way to increase attributes/statistics due to their scaling. It makes things more difficult to manage and check, increasing some value by 100%, instead of assigning a static number increase that can easily be tested and adjusted.

Scaling is exactly why certain game types PREFER percentages. It always scales with your gear,etc. Static increases are crap because they can be good at low levels and get progressively worse as you improve. Your post is pretty much in direct opposition to good game design.
User avatar
Amy Gibson
 
Posts: 3540
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:11 pm

Post » Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:20 pm


Scaling is exactly why certain game types PREFER percentages. It always scales with your gear,etc. Static increases are crap because they can be good at low levels and get progressively worse as you improve. Your post is pretty much in direct opposition to good game design.

That only happens in a poorly designed monty haul style game. If all hit point/statistic/item values were set up in a properly defined and linear progression, for both player and NPC, such an issue would never arise. Player mages feel the largest hit from the way magic does not scale, because their spell values are static, while npcs scale exponentially instead of linearly in response to the exponential way melee/archery/stealth damage increases.
User avatar
ZANEY82
 
Posts: 3314
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2006 3:10 am

Post » Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:16 pm

That only happens in a poorly designed monty haul style game. If all hit point/statistic/item values were set up in a properly defined and linear progression, for both player and NPC, such an issue would never arise. Player mages feel the largest hit from the way magic does not scale, because their spell values are static, while npcs scale exponentially instead of linearly in response to the exponential way melee/archery/stealth damage increases.

Non magic damage scales out of control because of the numerous ways to stack weapon bonuses. And Skyrim already has incremental damage progression for weapons through the process of skill increase. Like I said, there's a reason why certain games prefer percentage based improvements and why the good numbers crunchers in things like MMO's let developers know a certain static increase in a game is usually crap. Percentages scale to things like gear,etc. Static increases don't.
User avatar
Samantha Wood
 
Posts: 3286
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 5:03 am

Post » Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:00 pm

Go charging at them with Steadfast Wards periodically. Eventually, you'll find they start cracking it even with the Flamethrower spells. (Or find a Wisp mother, they have an ice spike that shatters it at any level)

Either it scales, or they have access to extra sets of spells.

NPC spells are an entirely different animal than the set the PC has access to. You are correct.
-Loth
User avatar
Umpyre Records
 
Posts: 3436
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:19 pm

Post » Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:45 pm

I think one of the reasons the end game difficulty falls apart for melee/archery, and why its not so bad for destruction mages, is that melee/archery all have ways of increasing damage that scale roughly linearly with level. And they're multiplicative for the most part, not additive. Additive bonuses would still be linear. But multiplying a linear skill bonus times a linear smithing bonus (plus better base gear) times a linear enchanting bonus means your damage goes up with skill level cubed, while enemy health is (most likely) increasing linearly. To make it worse, I'm pretty sure the amount of skill level XP needed to go up an overall level increases faster than the amount of XP gained from leveling a skill (meaning your overall level grows slower than your skill levels - I did the math based on UESP info a while ago.) For mages though, nothing changes except access to spells, and I haven't checked but I'm guessing their damage increase is closer to being linear.
User avatar
BrEezy Baby
 
Posts: 3478
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2007 4:22 am

Post » Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:58 am

That only happens in a poorly designed monty haul style game. If all hit point/statistic/item values were set up in a properly defined and linear progression, for both player and NPC, such an issue would never arise. Player mages feel the largest hit from the way magic does not scale, because their spell values are static, while npcs scale exponentially instead of linearly in response to the exponential way melee/archery/stealth damage increases.
It doesn't matter if the game does a Monty Haul or not, since static increases are only worthwhile if the minimum and maximum damage or armor values attainable through gear fall within a fairly compressed range. If, for example, bows are capable of anywhere from 30-80 damage, then an increase of, say, 25 is quite significant, but when the range is 30-500+ then that same 25 becomes chump change once you reach the higher end of the spectrum. This, by the way, is why it's generally better for those engaging in stealth archery to not bother with damage enchantments; the only opponents against which they would make a difference are Elder or Ancient Dragons, and you'd be taking a Fortify Marksman potion for those anyway.
User avatar
Shelby Huffman
 
Posts: 3454
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:06 am

Post » Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:03 pm

Fun fact: Fortify Marksman increases EVERY combat skill... not just archery. Unless they fixed it in 1.3 (probably not)
-Loth

PS Imp of the Perverse has a very good handle on why combat mechanics "breaks down" at the high end of the scale... the only way to avoid the disparity he mentions is by self-discipline, i.e., don't go crazy with all of the crafting synergies... pick one, or at most, two of Smithing/Alchemy/Enchanting skills, depending on your personal preferences. Just maximizing the possibilities with only smithing and enchanting will yield quite OP equipment when the skills are fully perked at 100.
User avatar
Anthony Diaz
 
Posts: 3474
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:24 pm

Post » Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:52 am

One of the main things that bugs me is players getting practically unlimited instant healing potions with no cooldown.
This is the main thing that bugs me the most too - Player can stop time and drink infinite number of instant healing potions.

I've found it much more fun to just play with a lower difficulty level and not use healing potions at all...Then you don't have to pause combat at all and enemies aren't damage sponges.
User avatar
Alexander Lee
 
Posts: 3481
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 9:30 pm

Post » Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:43 pm

...the only way to avoid the disparity he mentions is by self-discipline, i.e., don't go crazy with all of the crafting synergies... pick one, or at most, two of Smithing/Alchemy/Enchanting skills, depending on your personal preferences. Just maximizing the possibilities with only smithing and enchanting will yield quite OP equipment when the skills are fully perked at 100.

Not the only way. At the moment I'm playing a Breton sword and shield tank with http://www.skyrimnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=4444 installed. It cuts the magnitude of the fortify weapon damage enchantments in half (though I think it should be even more), as well as greatly reducing the strength of fortify smithing/alchemy enchantments, and gets rid of player crafted smithing/enchanting potions. These kinds of changes take a long time to playtest though, so I'm hoping one of the big name balance overhaul modders takes a crack at it to get a few more opinions in there, or, possibly, Bethesda.

*Edit - This character's also using minimal alchemy, I'm attempting to do all my healing via restoration magic and handling magic resistance through the Breton perk and shield perks. I'll still chug health potions though if I'm about to die and I don't want to have to load a save, but I don't buy or craft them, just pick them up. It's remained reasonably challenging so far (level 35 at the moment.)
User avatar
Claire
 
Posts: 3329
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:01 pm

Post » Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:00 am

I agree with the OP. I am now taking a break from skyrim because even at master from the get-go, I now have 2 lvl 60 characters and a "noob" at lvl 35... this game is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too easy. I love the game and the roleplay it inspires in me, but they really ruined my taste for the game by not testing it at all. Did they even pay a guy to play through it once? even once? I enjoy the optimistic encouragement from Loth about the construction kit, but i also share OP's response as well. Substandard QA is not "ok" because of a construction set.
User avatar
Symone Velez
 
Posts: 3434
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:39 am

Post » Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:34 am

One thing to keep in mind is that you can't loot HP. Upping their toughness by giving them more health instead of legendary daedric armor achieves roughly the same effect, but doesn't break the game's economy or make smithing obsolete by flooding you with top notch gear.


Improving their gear would a simple way to improve an NPCs abilities. Your example is the precise example for that. If you take away that crappy iron sword from the boss and give him daedric gear, it would crank up his survivability and output. And just because they give the NPC gear doesn't automatically translate into it going into the game and breaking economy, etc. When you fight daedra, they dont drop the armor they are clearly wearing. Neither do the draugr. Nor do a fair portion of the NPCs available for you to fight.
However, I have come across NPCs that DO have upgraded weapons. I have found many Draugr with ebony or daedric weapons that were lootable. And again the draugr have both enchanted weapons as well as 'smithed' items, ie, honed battle axes, and the supple bows.
So there are at least a few examples of NPCs with PC-like upgrades.
User avatar
Big mike
 
Posts: 3423
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:38 pm

Post » Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:37 pm

Aside from obvious things like sneak detection Ai being blind/deaf and general exploitable/dumb Ai behaviors, they appear to scale in a way, that directly increases their outgoing damage, and inflates hit points to compensate for poor equipment. This isn't inherently bad exactly, but it is the lazy way out, and is made glaring by most NPCs not having any perks, upgraded equipment, or skills. This is also an obvious cause for player abilities being overpowered.

It is the fact that NPCs cannot use them, and are thus essentially on a different ruleset from the player, when Ideally, they ought to be constrained to the same rules we players abide by, and benefit from...that is an issue.

That's rather to disappointing to hear. I expected Bethesda to flesh out NPCs with the revamped skill system. :shakehead:
User avatar
Gisela Amaya
 
Posts: 3424
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:29 pm

Post » Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:34 pm

I really hate those awkward moments when my follower dies to a mudcrab. Let me repeat. A mudcrab.

I don't mind if they don't insta-scale to me whenever I step on a skeever and level up but let me give them some decent armour and weapon at least. Right now due to flawed mechanics all followers go herp derp and change back to their lvl 5 stuff even if I hand them "Daedric Armour of Faceroll" and "Ebony Weapon of Easy Mode" or something akin to that. Not to mention ignoring given potions. Lydia was a particularly dumb one, walking into every single trap, jumping in front of my attacks and failing to drink even 1 measly healing potion out of the 40-50 flasks I had given her.
User avatar
Lori Joe
 
Posts: 3539
Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2006 6:10 am

Post » Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:03 pm

We'll be holding this to them after their talk about "balancing" in that blog post.
User avatar
Andy durkan
 
Posts: 3459
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2007 3:05 pm

Post » Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:16 pm

One thing to keep in mind is that you can't loot HP. Upping their toughness by giving them more health instead of legendary daedric armor achieves roughly the same effect, but doesn't break the game's economy or make smithing obsolete by flooding you with top notch gear.

Weapon damage though is another matter, but there are other ways to improve NPC damage besides giving them awesome weapons. I haven't looked at any of the NPCs in an editor yet, but I'm guessing that even if their weapon skills scale up as they level, they probably don't get any perks. With 5 ranks of damage increase, you'll get 200% damage, which, multiplied by the 50% increase you get from 100 weapons skill, means 300% total damage increase. NPCs are stuck with the 50% from skill alone. So adding perks would help keep NPCs a bit more powerful later in the game.

Smithing can roughly double weapon damage, and enchanting can almost triple it, so you're still going to be looking at a discrepancy, but it would still be a big step up.
I have been single hit to kill with an bandit with an orcish bow, level 46 with 250 hp and 300 in armor, also been killed in one hit from an dragon, lots of other enemies like bears do serious damage and can easy kill you, I'm not so concerned about magic attacks as I have potions who makes me resist most of the effect but without them you can easy bee killed at all levels, playing on hard who work well as I'm able to do plenty of damage and expect the enemy to do damage to, yes most of the enemies are weak but some are dangerous, you just has to know who of the forsworn who are the briarheart :)

This is a far step from earlier games, Daggerfall and Morrowind lacked high level enemies. In Oblivion enemies at higher level just got tons of health but was not dangerous as their damage was to low, they just took a long time to kill.
Fallout 3 was better but enemies before broken steel was not very dangerous at high level with the exception of the rocket launchers.

Obviously high end npc get some sort of damage buff in Skyrim.
User avatar
jason worrell
 
Posts: 3345
Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 12:26 am

Post » Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:17 am

After nearly being one-shotted by a lowly random bandit archer on the road at level 60+ I'm starting to think there is something wrong. I'm not kidding, a single shot took about 2/3rds of my health even though I've been piling into health and stamina during my levelups. I'm estimating his shot did 250-300 pts of damage to me.
User avatar
Michelle Chau
 
Posts: 3308
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2006 4:24 am

PreviousNext

Return to V - Skyrim