Player vs NPC power disparity, and why it is broken

Post » Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:16 pm

Yeah, I know, this will probably be seen as an unpopular opinion, "doesn't need fixing" etc, but I feel it is important and has been a pretty glaring issue in most of the TES games, though I am only going to address the issues in Skyrim. Also, I'm apologizing for the long post in advance.

The issue is NPC power vs player power, and why it tapers off so rapidly from imbalanced abilities and rudimentary NPC design. One of the biggest is readily seen on NPCs that are of the same humanoid races as the player, and are thus not considered under the "creature" type.

Aside from obvious things like sneak detection Ai being blind/deaf and general exploitable/dumb Ai behaviors, they appear to scale in a way, that directly increases their outgoing damage, and inflates hit points to compensate for poor equipment. This isn't inherently bad exactly, but it is the lazy way out, and is made glaring by most NPCs not having any perks, upgraded equipment, or skills. This is also an obvious cause for player abilities being overpowered.

It is the fact that NPCs cannot use them, and are thus essentially on a different ruleset from the player, when Ideally, they ought to be constrained to the same rules we players abide by, and benefit from...that is an issue.

Not only has this likely given the developers a perceived excuse to not have to balance perks and equipment levels, under the assumption NPCs cannot wield them at all against players, but it also leaves NPCs in a constant state of playing catch up through brute force due to their lack of ability...which obviously is not working.

It becomes more pronounced with "creature" type enemies, as they are even more divorced from player mechanics. They have 0 armor value, no damage penetration, perks etc.

The result of said issues is thus: Enemies are so basic and pathetic, that many perks aren’t even worth taking because they have no use, or are blatantly broken when put to use against the opposition due to an apparent lack of playtesting and scrutinizing of such abilities beyond simply seeing if they work.

Examples:

Spoiler


Bladesman only works off of base damage of the weapon, which is a fraction of total damage at high levels. For example using a Legendary Daedric Sword with 100 One-handed and 5/5 Armsman you will deliver 72 damage per hit. However base damage for a Daedric Sword is only 14, so 3/3 Bladesman perk will have a 20% chance to cause 7 additional damage.

The bleeding effect of Hack and Slash depends on weapon material and skill level and lasts six seconds. However even a Daedric weapon used with level 3 of Hack and Slash will cause only 18 bleeding damage. While multiple bleeding effects stack, by the time you apply several of them the enemy will most likely already be dead due to our weapon's raw damage.

The effective value of 100 sneak skill is apparently so high, that increasing it further with enchanted equipment, causes the hidden value to roll over past 100 to start over again despite still showing 100 sneak.

Shadow Warrior, does not do anything close to what its description says. It applies a faux invisibility type effect that does not really draw off distant enemies, and in fact allows you instead to crouch and strike an enemy repeatedly until you get a sneak attack after already being detected....throwing the need for precise sneaking out of the window.

Mages with the impact and relevant elemental perks can essentially staggerlock every enemy in the game that can be staggered to the point where they cannot even fight back at all due to the issues with stagger in general, that being that there are not stagger thresholds, or stagger immunity periods preventing spammability.

The armor-ignoring effect of Bone Breaker is almost completely irrelevant because most enemies are lightly armored. Dragons and most monsters have high health and 0 armor, and even heavily armored humanoid enemies most likely have no armor skill, no armor perks and no armor upgrades, so an opponent clad full in Daedric Armor will have 49+18+18+23=108 armor rating, which gives them negligible damage reduction.

Player mages, that focus on pure destruction are far weaker than NPC mages that do the same. If players and NPCs followed the same rules, this would have been noticed unless it is fully intentional.

Sneak attacks do ridiculous damage, due to the above...but the damage itself obviously does not really need a significant nerf as that is not exactly the real problem. The problem with sneak attacks is that there is no noticeable amount of damage reduction going on to mitigate the high damage values against enemy hit points to justify the damage being so high in the first place.

The marked for death and similar weakness to resist/defense type abilities, are supremely effective against dragons and creature type enemies, due to them having essentially 0 armor to begin with. You are reducing their defense below 0! The old stacking bug with these abilities has also migrated. Using two level 1 marked for death shouts against one enemy for example, is better than using level 2 marked for death!

Dragonrend, at all 3 levels, comes back before the duration expires...making it 100% sustainable. Rendering dragons even more useless than they already are as "powerful boss enemies".

In short, I am sorry to say that this level of enemy design/mechanics work is incredibly lazy for a game that has been under development for at least 3 years. Considering we will typically spend a majority of our time dealing with the combat mechanics and enemies, I find its current sad state inexcusable.

This is only one of the issues I have with Skyrim, but that's not to say that I hate the game, far from it. But it does sadden me to see something that could in many ways, have been so great....diminished by things that were simply not given as much care and diligence as they should have gotten.
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Tamika Jett
 
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Post » Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:30 pm

Broken? No. Perfect? No.
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Dominic Vaughan
 
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Post » Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:25 am

I am the Dragon born I have slayed many dragons and you expect that lowly bandits will be almost exactly like me? What does dragon born mean nothing to you?
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josh evans
 
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Post » Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:21 am

NPC AI in any game are "stupid" I played WOW for 5 years and did my share of raids and instances and found the content boring as it's all about fighting scripted mobs. If it wasn't for PVP Wow ala, Arena and Battlegrounds I would have quit World of Warcraft years ago.
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Nichola Haynes
 
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Post » Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:04 am

the only thing i ever encounter is health sponges i dont notice any increase in damage output just suddenly it takes 5-7 arrows to put someone down im yet to suddenly see NPC's any extra damage then their weapon should
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claire ley
 
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Post » Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:49 pm

In short, I am sorry to say that this level of enemy design/mechanics work is incredibly lazy for a game that has been under development for at least 3 years. Considering we will typically spend a majority of our time dealing with the combat mechanics and enemies, I find its current sad state inexcusable.

In Skyrim you do combat and interact with npc′s. Both of those features are still pretty raw and clumsy. Combat and AI need to be improved. A lot.
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Celestine Stardust
 
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Post » Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:32 pm

Well you are no normal man like https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/391297_10150567132094966_167774004965_11760587_1249516389_n.jpg :wink: YOU are the hero of the game. He must be stronger then everyone else. You are the http://www.geekfill.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/f9uwV.jpg!
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Tammie Flint
 
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Post » Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:49 pm

I think all of this is true, and it's a valid argument - there's no doubt about it that the combat system isn't where it should. It just doesn't bother me since I made my weapons so strong and wear no armor so I always one hit kill enmies and they always one hit kill me. It almost evens out.
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Jonny
 
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Post » Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:02 pm

While I won't comment on the whole post at this particular moment, I will say that I'm fairly certain that enemies do use perks. One example that I distinctly recall is when an enemy archer was shooting and moving as if he had the "Ranger" perk. Now I did not do extensive testing, but I'm fairly positive he was moving like he had the Ranger perk because he probably HAD the Ranger perk. Food for thought.
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matt oneil
 
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Post » Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:17 pm

Yeah, they seriously need to tone back the amount of sheer health that enemies get, while giving them a higher Armor Rating. That way, there'd be damage mitigation against weaponry (Giving viability to the Bone Breaker/Skull Smasher perks) and Destruction magic wouldn't be so pathetic, since it wouldn't just merely be shaving a sliver off of a massive health pool then.
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Emily Martell
 
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Post » Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:11 am

Broken? No. Perfect? No.

"Serviceable", at best is what it feels more like to me I suppose.

I am the Dragon born I have slayed many dragons and you expect that lowly bandits will be almost exactly like me? What does dragon born mean nothing to you?

Just because someone has the same set of abilities to choose from as you, does not mean they have your same potential. Your deeds and what you can do with your abilities, should be more important than simply being dragon born.

NPC AI in any game are "stupid" I played WOW for 5 years and did my share of raids and instances and found the content boring as it's all about fighting scripted mobs. If it wasn't for PVP Wow ala, Arena and Battlegrounds I would have quit World of Warcraft years ago.

Yes, thank you for stating what Is already known. That however, does not change the fact that they should still try harder. They have had many games to improve upon their Ai work, and the change between each game, despite the years spent is negligible.

the only thing i ever encounter is health sponges i dont notice any increase in damage output just suddenly it takes 5-7 arrows to put someone down im yet to suddenly see NPC's any extra damage then their weapon should

I am exclusively playing on master, so it may be a bit different in areas.

Well you are no normal man like https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/391297_10150567132094966_167774004965_11760587_1249516389_n.jpg :wink: YOU are the hero of the game. He must be stronger then everyone else. You are the http://www.geekfill.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/f9uwV.jpg!

I like those comics. However, I am not a fan of being the dragon born as an excuse. We already have dragon shouts, and the ability to reach beyond the level cap of any other NPC in the game. I don't think it is too much to ask, that aside from those things, NPCs ought to follow the same rules as a player level up and ability wise.

While I won't comment on the whole post at this particular moment, I will say that I'm fairly certain that enemies do use perks. One example that I distinctly recall is when an enemy archer was shooting and moving as if he had the "Ranger" perk. Now I did not do extensive testing, but I'm fairly positive he was moving like he had the Ranger perk because he probably HAD the Ranger perk. Food for thought.

Possibly, though I believe aside from very few, deliberate cases...NPCs tend to be very bare bones.
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Dark Mogul
 
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Post » Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:33 am

Sneak attaks should do ridiculous amounts of damage. Its a BACKSTAB.
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Jessie Butterfield
 
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Post » Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:39 pm

One thing to keep in mind is that you can't loot HP. Upping their toughness by giving them more health instead of legendary daedric armor achieves roughly the same effect, but doesn't break the game's economy or make smithing obsolete by flooding you with top notch gear.

Weapon damage though is another matter, but there are other ways to improve NPC damage besides giving them awesome weapons. I haven't looked at any of the NPCs in an editor yet, but I'm guessing that even if their weapon skills scale up as they level, they probably don't get any perks. With 5 ranks of damage increase, you'll get 200% damage, which, multiplied by the 50% increase you get from 100 weapons skill, means 300% total damage increase. NPCs are stuck with the 50% from skill alone. So adding perks would help keep NPCs a bit more powerful later in the game.

Smithing can roughly double weapon damage, and enchanting can almost triple it, so you're still going to be looking at a discrepancy, but it would still be a big step up.
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Alan Cutler
 
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Post » Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:19 pm

Don't worry, re123... as soon as the CK comes out, the modding community will address ALL of this. Count on it. We will "fix" the game. :)

To implement changes like you suggest will be almost a breeze, once we can reliably and easily alter leveled lists for NPC equipment and mob stats. High-level enemies will have good gear and perks, don't worry... expect to see dragons with high armor ratings, and repaired weapons spec perks that actually do something -- like bladesman and bleeding taking scaling info instead of being a flat number.

Patience, my friend... patience. When we have the tools, this will happen.
-Loth
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Caroline flitcroft
 
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Post » Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:07 pm

Broken? No. Perfect? No.
/nailedit
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Hazel Sian ogden
 
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Post » Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:23 am

Don't worry, re123... as soon as the CK comes out, the modding community will address ALL of this. Count on it. We will "fix" the game. :smile:

To implement changes like you suggest will be almost a breeze, once we can reliably and easily alter leveled lists for NPC equipment and mob stats. High-level enemies will have good gear and perks, don't worry... expect to see dragons with high armor ratings, and repaired weapons spec perks that actually do something -- like bladesman and bleeding taking scaling info instead of being a flat number.

Patience, my friend... patience. When we have the tools, this will happen.
-Loth

Oh, I have no doubt about that. However I've grown to find that answer dissatisfying to say the least, as it does nothing for others that do not game on our same platform, and has repeatedly allowed poor work to be done mechanically with little to no reproach. Many are willing to overlook the issues because there is no alternative, Bethesda holds the monopoly on these types of games and can get away with such things because of it.

The attitude simply disgusts me, the reliance upon us players to fix their own game for them, free of pay or anything encourages laziness. Bethesda should take greater pride and interest in their work, ensuring it is as complete and as honed as can be, all the way up until they stop all support for the game.

I appreciate the patches we have gotten (when they work), however I know that they will not patch the game forever. Unless their behavior changes, it is almost certain there will still be glaring faults even after the final patch, resulting from either phoning in the fixes or general apathy past holding all of our money. I would like to be proven wrong, but I am not optimistic enough to believe they will put forth the effort into making sweeping changes that better the game as a whole, or bring it closer to where it should have been on release.
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Sarah Kim
 
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Post » Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:51 pm

I hear ya, man... this same disappointment happened with a number of other games in the past, and will happen again in the future. I will say this: at least gamesas cares enough to release mod tools.

That really, really matters, man. So many other companies wouldn't dream of such a thing. The fact of the business is that you can't make everything "perfect" for everyone's tastes, because that definition is a little different from one person to the next. I'm sure that there are plenty of people out there that love Skyrim just fine as it is. But this is the kicker: Beth cares so much that they actually release the tools to change their game that they spent God knows how much money and time developing just so that players like you and me can make it even better for ourselves. That is pretty damn bad-ass, if you ask me. Get ready for countless new quests/places/items/monsters/spells/game mechanics or what have you because of this attitude... that they have the balls to share their code like this, and even make it easy for us to change. That's not lazy, man... that's courage. :)

Chin up, soldier... and let's be thankful for what we can get. It's a hell of a lot more than other companies are willing to do. :) I'd love to mod the hell outta Deus Ex 3, but they're never gonna give us dev tools for it.
-Loth
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stephanie eastwood
 
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Post » Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:19 am

Yeah, I know, this will probably be seen as an unpopular opinion, "doesn't need fixing" etc, but I feel it is important and has been a pretty glaring issue in most of the TES games, though I am only going to address the issues in Skyrim. Also, I'm apologizing for the long post in advance.

The issue is NPC power vs player power, and why it tapers off so rapidly from imbalanced abilities and rudimentary NPC design. One of the biggest is readily seen on NPCs that are of the same humanoid races as the player, and are thus not considered under the "creature" type.

Aside from obvious things like sneak detection Ai being blind/deaf and general exploitable/dumb Ai behaviors, they appear to scale in a way, that directly increases their outgoing damage, and inflates hit points to compensate for poor equipment. This isn't inherently bad exactly, but it is the lazy way out, and is made glaring by most NPCs not having any perks, upgraded equipment, or skills. This is also an obvious cause for player abilities being overpowered.

It is the fact that NPCs cannot use them, and are thus essentially on a different ruleset from the player, when Ideally, they ought to be constrained to the same rules we players abide by, and benefit from...that is an issue.

Not only has this likely given the developers a perceived excuse to not have to balance perks and equipment levels, under the assumption NPCs cannot wield them at all against players, but it also leaves NPCs in a constant state of playing catch up through brute force due to their lack of ability...which obviously is not working.

It becomes more pronounced with "creature" type enemies, as they are even more divorced from player mechanics. They have 0 armor value, no damage penetration, perks etc.

The result of said issues is thus: Enemies are so basic and pathetic, that many perks aren’t even worth taking because they have no use, or are blatantly broken when put to use against the opposition due to an apparent lack of playtesting and scrutinizing of such abilities beyond simply seeing if they work.

Examples:

Spoiler


Bladesman only works off of base damage of the weapon, which is a fraction of total damage at high levels. For example using a Legendary Daedric Sword with 100 One-handed and 5/5 Armsman you will deliver 72 damage per hit. However base damage for a Daedric Sword is only 14, so 3/3 Bladesman perk will have a 20% chance to cause 7 additional damage.

The bleeding effect of Hack and Slash depends on weapon material and skill level and lasts six seconds. However even a Daedric weapon used with level 3 of Hack and Slash will cause only 18 bleeding damage. While multiple bleeding effects stack, by the time you apply several of them the enemy will most likely already be dead due to our weapon's raw damage.

The effective value of 100 sneak skill is apparently so high, that increasing it further with enchanted equipment, causes the hidden value to roll over past 100 to start over again despite still showing 100 sneak.

Shadow Warrior, does not do anything close to what its description says. It applies a faux invisibility type effect that does not really draw off distant enemies, and in fact allows you instead to crouch and strike an enemy repeatedly until you get a sneak attack after already being detected....throwing the need for precise sneaking out of the window.

Mages with the impact and relevant elemental perks can essentially staggerlock every enemy in the game that can be staggered to the point where they cannot even fight back at all due to the issues with stagger in general, that being that there are not stagger thresholds, or stagger immunity periods preventing spammability.

The armor-ignoring effect of Bone Breaker is almost completely irrelevant because most enemies are lightly armored. Dragons and most monsters have high health and 0 armor, and even heavily armored humanoid enemies most likely have no armor skill, no armor perks and no armor upgrades, so an opponent clad full in Daedric Armor will have 49+18+18+23=108 armor rating, which gives them negligible damage reduction.

Sneak attacks do ridiculous damage, due to the above...but the damage itself obviously does not really need a significant nerf as that is not exactly the real problem. The problem with sneak attacks is that there is no noticeable amount of damage reduction going on to mitigate the high damage values against enemy hit points to justify the damage being so high in the first place.

The marked for death and similar weakness to resist/defense type abilities, are supremely effective against dragons and creature type enemies, due to them having essentially 0 armor to begin with. You are reducing their defense below 0! The old stacking bug with these abilities has also migrated. Using two level 1 marked for death shouts against one enemy for example, is better than using level 2 marked for death!

Dragonrend, at all 3 levels, comes back before the duration expires...making it 100% sustainable. Rendering dragons even more useless than they already are as "powerful boss enemies".

In short, I am sorry to say that this level of enemy design/mechanics work is incredibly lazy for a game that has been under development for at least 3 years. Considering we will typically spend a majority of our time dealing with the combat mechanics and enemies, I find its current sad state inexcusable.

This is only one of the issues I have with Skyrim, but that's not to say that I hate the game, far from it. But it does sadden me to see something that could in many ways, have been so great....diminished by things that were simply not given as much care and diligence as they should have gotten.

I agree with you entirely. Skyrim is far from being balanced and shows it lacked in testing pre-release.
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Brandon Bernardi
 
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Post » Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:04 am

I hear ya, man... this same disappointment happened with a number of other games in the past, and will happen again in the future. I will say this: at least gamesas cares enough to release mod tools.

That really, really matters, man. So many other companies wouldn't dream of such a thing. The fact of the business is that you can't make everything "perfect" for everyone's tastes, because that definition is a little different from one person to the next. I'm sure that there are plenty of people out there that love Skyrim just fine as it is. But this is the kicker: Beth cares so much that they actually release the tools to change their game that they spent God knows how much money and time developing just so that players like you and me can make it even better for ourselves. That is pretty damn bad-ass, if you ask me. Get ready for countless new quests/places/items/monsters/spells/game mechanics or what have you because of this attitude... that they have the balls to share their code like this, and even make it easy for us to change. That's not lazy, man... that's courage. :smile:

Chin up, soldier... and let's be thankful for what we can get. It's a hell of a lot more than other companies are willing to do. :smile: I'd love to mod the hell outta Deus Ex 3, but they're never gonna give us dev tools for it.
-Loth

I suppose, however I am not convinced that it's enough anymore. I'm not willing to give them kudos for doing what is by now, something that is expected of them. The same way I refuse to gush all over at them for making a beautiful game world, because that's what they do. I would only be impressed if they vastly improved in an area they have otherwise been known to be glaringly weak at.

They historically have allowed these types of mechanical issues to languish and linger. It just feels to me like they won't wake up and get serious about their own games' issues until someone starts dipping into their niche.
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Chloe Mayo
 
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Post » Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:42 pm

The problem is that some players want a game that caters to their style, but others feel differently.

For example... Destruction magic is not underpowered at all, even on Master. Master is boring but for a totally different reason (i.e., simply adding health/damage is not changing difficulty, but almost all companies do it because it's the easy way out).

The problem I see with AI is with creature AI behaving as human/humanoid, including flanking manuevers and other strategies such as backing the player against a barrier such as a rock wall. This is very silly for creatures, except perhaps pack animals like wolves (but even then there would not be any backing players into walls). It's very ludicrous to see a bear flanking you as it charges because bears would never do such a thing.

I play ranged characters, almost always pure mages, and I do not have problems with Beth's general approach. It seems to me that complaints come from either melee players or players who have certain expectations for ranged play styles (e.g., do not understand how a pure caster character works in TES). I would not want Beth to change the game to suit melee players, and in fact they already have to a very large extent. Heck, just look at gthe ridiculous amount of melee equipment you find/acquire versus ranged equipment, gems, jewelry, clothing, etc. You can see where Beth's bias lies.

Ultimately, that's why Beth supports modding. They want us to customize our game to our tastes. They cannot do this for us, of course.
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Matt Terry
 
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Post » Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:08 pm

The problem is that some players want a game that caters to their style, but others feel differently.

For example... Destruction magic is not underpowered at all, even on Master. Master is boring but for a totally different reason (i.e., simply adding health/damage is not changing difficulty, but almost all companies do it because it's the easy way out).

The problem I see with AI is with creature AI behaving as human/humanoid, including flanking manuevers and other strategies such as backing the player against a barrier such as a rock wall. This is very silly for creatures, except perhaps pack animals like wolves (but even then there would not be any backing players into walls). It's very ludicrous to see a bear flanking you as it charges because bears would never do such a thing.

I play ranged characters, almost always pure mages, and I do not have problems with Beth's general approach. It seems to me that complaints come from either melee players or players who have certain expectations for ranged play styles (e.g., do not understand how a pure caster character works in TES). I would not want Beth to change the game to suit melee players, and in fact they already have to a very large extent. Heck, just look at gthe ridiculous amount of melee equipment you find/acquire versus ranged equipment, gems, jewelry, clothing, etc. You can see where Beth's bias lies.

Ultimately, that's why Beth supports modding. They want us to customize our game to our tastes. They cannot do this for us, of course.

I think magic needs a slight bump up, but not by much. The other issue I believe is that melee and bow are simply too good in comparison, which makes it look weak.
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RaeAnne
 
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Post » Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:00 am

Pretty much everything you say is simple fact, but people will argue with it anyway. I just don't understand how people can't see, or why they'd deny, how imbalanced the combat is but many on the forums somehow seem to think it's fine. :/

There is essentially no game balance in Skyrim right now and the combat suffers quite badly due to a great number of poor combat design decisions on top of that.

One of the main things that bugs me is players getting practically unlimited instant healing potions with no cooldown.
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Bethany Watkin
 
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Post » Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:19 pm

Pretty much everything you say is simple fact, but people will argue with it anyway. I just don't understand how people can't see, or why they'd deny, how imbalanced the combat is but many on the forums somehow seem to think it's fine. :/

There is essentially no game balance in Skyrim right now and the combat suffers quite badly due to a great number of poor combat design decisions on top of that.

One of the main things that bugs me is players getting practically unlimited instant healing potions with no cooldown.

I am honestly a little surprised I haven't been really attacked yet for posting this. I guess an extremely long-winded opening post, among other things scares most people away.
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Elisha KIng
 
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Post » Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:25 am

Pretty much everything you say is simple fact, but people will argue with it anyway. I just don't understand how people can't see, or why they'd deny, how imbalanced the combat is but many on the forums somehow seem to think it's fine. :/

There is essentially no game balance in Skyrim right now and the combat suffers quite badly due to a great number of poor combat design decisions on top of that.

One of the main things that bugs me is players getting practically unlimited instant healing potions with no cooldown.

They don't realize how broken the combat is because no one has produced a game like Tes with proper combat. And without a comparison most people won't see thee issue for what it is
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lucile
 
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Post » Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:03 am

I have to agree with the OP.

Higher difficulty just giving npcs more health and do more damage is indeed lazy. We do want npcs to follow the same rule as us. Higher difficulty should mean better AI, where npcs use more skills at their disposal to kill you, drink more potions, etc.

In fact, a simpler but still realistic way to increase difficulty would be to just add more npcs.
With more npcs, warriors have to expertly block and attack. Mages have to make use of their stuns and aoe spells. Thieves have to be more patient and sneak attack carefully.
The reward of such a higher difficulty would be more loot from the extra npcs. More loot means more gold.
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latrina
 
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