Actually, I didn't tell anyone to leave in this thread...

Isn't that why they introduced limited perks into Skyrim? Two people can have 100% Restoration but different perks, thus their "power levels" vary.

And now we're moving ever so closer towards the "demigod". You team up, then the "demigods" team up, arms race, reductio ad absurdum you have a numbers game. The only true imbalance would be when magic is countered by 100% spell reflection, resistance or absorption, and damage by 100% damage reflection or shield.

You're going to have to explain that one to me given what I've said.

Again, you're missing the point. The engineer, doctor, lawyer and so on are broad with no clear-cut definition on specialization. These represent the "base classes", as Healer, Warrior and Rogue are also broad. By introducing skills as a search term, or "field", you get a much better sample to choose your group from.

Well, what can I say? I've an OCD.

In response to the original post in this thread, I've read how so many people want TESO to be more like the Elder Scrolls. Well, until skyrim, Elder Scrolls WAS class-based. They only just introduced a classless mechanic with Skyrim.

Thank you for playing. Try again!

Apologies but you are incorrect. Class systems are fairly easy, what actually makes them hard is when you add more classes to the sandbox. A simple Mage/Warrior/Thief class system, hard class system mind you, is very easy to balance because you can do the simple "rock, paper, scissors" scenario.

Actually Eric no one here has been trying to shut anyone up except you. You are bringing the grief here. No one has told you to go away, but your words and methods of communication are very confrontational and as you say condescending.

I never said that I was going away or needed to get the last word in - there just is little point in debating with you when a person can write paragraphs of rationale as to why skills are a better and your reply with a simple: "No ... go learn game history" or some such thing. Why would anyone debate that?

You are arguing from the point of view that your own subjective preferences are objective truth for all games of the MMO genre. Since MMOs have come up with the template of class based it must always be this way? TES broke tradition with classes in the fantasy game - so why is it outlandish to think that a TESO would and could break with that tradition as an MMO?

I've no problem with your personal preferences - those are fine - for you.

That's like saying that if enough people smash their heads against a brick wall, one of them is bound to get through eventually. Trying to beat Blizzard at their own game has proven to be a very expensive exercise in futility. That the newest generation of MMOs are even attempting to deviate from the Everquest -> WoW formula at all is indicative that even the stuffed shirts are beginning to realize that. Of course, they mostly try to stay close to the formula because they still seem to have the mistaken belief that there actually is a safe way to invest in the MMO genre in a way that doesn't boil down to "buy stock in Activision."

Some investors need to realize that the MMO genre is a huge risk, and if you want to venture into these waters, you gotta have the balls to be different since at least that has the possibility of success. Guild Wars managed by being Buy to Play. Some others manage with microtransaction fueled F2P(which I will never play). But the ones that try to tackle WoW's turf? Not doing so hot. CCP tackled a different genre with a different play style(no holds barred PvP) and a novel idea(single server with a player run economy). It's still going strong after nearly a decade. Does every game that tries to be different succeed? Well no. Not every single player or small scale multiplayer game succeeds either. But the ones that don't try to deviate in significant ways fall.

The point went over your head.


Section one: That still means they can be the exact same level of effective in Restoration. Again, Skyrim does not have a tier system. There is no "pure Healer" in Skyrim like there is in FFT/FFXI. No one is limited and thus a "pure Mage" i.e. someone who fully specced magic skills only, is still only going to be as effective as anyone else who takes all available Perks in a single skill. As I said, if using the skill system, a Restoration/Destruction build is going to heal just as well as a Restoration/Heavy Armor build. The only thing that will put the people with full Perks in Restoration apart from other players is either a. those other players haven't specced Restoration at all, b. they just haven't leveled Restoration high enough yet or c. they willingly picked a lower number of Perks. There is not the same separation as there is in FFT/FFXI where you have:

White Mage
Red Mage
Paladin
[Insert Job]/White Mage

A pure White Mage will always heal better than the other examples, always. Skyrim doesn't have that dynamic.

Section two: Yes, it becomes an arms race. It becomes imbalanced because there are just so many factors to include. I can be the Restoration/Heavy Armor with even decent Enchantments and things can become severely imbalanced because, thanks to my Heavy Armor, I'm not a squishy target. Healers are generally squishy for a reason.

Section three: What you have said is still "off," thus you can't really use it, in my opinion. PvP and PvE play out and are balanced differently. Not in the sense that PvE skills get one variable while the same skills in PvP get another, but because PvE will never work like PvP.

Section four: It is not broad in the least when you know exactly what each class does. For example, from FFXI if I was looking for a "Black Mage," I knew exactly what a Black Mage could do. I knew they would be the magic DPS. I didn't have to stop and look to see if by "Mage" do you mean they have 50 skill in Destruction, 35 in Alteration, 80 in Restoration, 45 in Conjuration and 100 in One-Handed. I want a mage DPS. These list of skills do not tell me you are a mage DPS because it actually looks like you are a One-Hand Warrior Healer, which is not what I want.

Section five: Um...

You were saying?

And I wasn't aware that the several paragraphs I have written equal to "a simple: "No ... go learn game history."

Since MMOs have come up with the template of class based it must always be this way? TES broke tradition with classes in the fantasy game - so why is it outlandish to think that a TESO would and could break with that tradition as an MMO?

Never said it always had to be that way. Currently, however, that is the way it has shown to best work.

I also never said it was outlandish to want TESO to work like TES and break tradition, if you have been reading, I have been saying (over and over again) why it would be hard.

So your idea of keeping balance is by limiting the classes we can choose from there by making it easy to match up class/lvl in a rock paper scissors scenario, my friends and I used the bomb and water to spice that game up because it was boring as is. We want choice and freedom with balance and skill lvl is the only way to achieve that.

Yeah but I own my own subjectiveness (an opinion that I share with others here - shared subjectiveness - and a shared gripe). You seem to portray your views as objectively as the only thing that will work. So the tit for tat is not necessary.

You go beyond saying it would be hard to do and onto attempting to defeat counter views in a manner most condescending, short, rude and dismissive out of hand. I'm not the only one reading you this way.

So if it is acceptable that skills could be the basis then why not have a constructive dialogue about how to have skills rather than class as a way that could best work?

Skill based class system. A class system that was purely optional, and offered absolutely zero restriction what so ever. The classes in the past games were nothing more than a glorified label.

So thank you for playing, try again!

I never said to limit classes ever. I simply said that as the number of classes increases, balancing gets harder. And no, skills is not the only way to achieve balance, you are incorrect.


Again, I've never said my view is the only way it can work. I have simply being saying that going with a route that single player TES games, notably Skyrim, would be much, much harder. Also, again, please take note of my conversation with Da Naga. No condescending there whatsoever despite Da Naga and myself debating opposite sides. If you can't place that my attitude has been different towards you and Nell because of how you have acted, I'm not sure what to tell you.

You want a constructive discussion on how skills could work, then say so in the first place rather than open up with "well a skill system is superior and is TES." That's not a constructive statement, nor is it a statement that calls out for discussion.

A skill based system is very difficult for a few reasons, the biggest one I continue to bring up is this:

There is the potential for no variance between players.

A system where everyone is the same is indeed symmetrically balanced (Halo, Quake, GoldenEye007) but in the context of an MMO it is inherently flawed because you are looking at hundreds of thousands of players playing together, either in the PvE or PvP areas.

A hard class system, despite having the ability for 500 people to be a White Mage at the same time, lends variance because each class is actually different.

If TESO worked like Skyrim does I could have the following build:

100 Stealth
100 Smithing
100 One-Hand
100 Light Armor
Etc, etc

Now, your build could be the following:

100 Stealth
100 Alchemy
100 Archery
100 Lock Picking
Etc, etc

Now, what sets me apart from you when we both engage in a Stealth situation? My Stealth is as good as yours, point of fact I am actually better speeced for an Assassin role due to my 100 One-Hand. But you can still sneak just as well as I can. So my speccing as a "pure" Assassin becames fairly meaningless when you can match me step for step in Stealth even though you may have specced being an Archer or a Mage.

So my "uniqueness" as an Assassin is gone. Where do I now fit into the roll of a party in the PvE setting? My single one-shot high damage backstab? Why does that matter when you can slip past traps, enemies, etc with the same ease I can and just drop an AoE Master level Destruction spell down and one-shot everything?

How does my build work in a PvP environment, whether it be 1v1 or XvX situations, when again, someone can be exactly as good as me, what my archetype/class is supposed to be, while they are actually boosting a different archetype that can actually be more powerful?

There is not the same fundamental dynamic of difference and checks and balances with a skill based system that there is with a hard class system.

Personally I think the best route for a TES MMO is to merge FFT/FFXI, Disgaea and TES qualities together. But I don't feel it can be pure TES.

And I've said from near the beginning of this that vanilla TES leveling is always something I mod to a better fit. Less ability to spam, slower leveling, etc. There are mods for adding more perk points to Skyrim, but I think one per level is actually good. Add a level cap and ta da the perks and skills make the character not the skills alone.

Now you seem very concerned with player party balance and I doubt I'm alone in not really caring about that. What is wrong with an MMO being somewhat more individual centric rather than having to fall in line with rock-paper-scissors? Yes it would mean potentially that some could and would be stronger, but so what - if somebody plays all day of course they would be. To me it is not appealing that MMOs of the fantasy stripe are all about party dynamics. That is a mode of play that is somewhat tiring as well. Belong to a faction or larger party - sure, but only real playability is that I have to be hooked up with some raiding party - no thanks.

It is the playstyle and mechanics that set balance not just mechanics.

Your acronyms I don't get either "FFT/FFXI, Disgaea" ... what?

I'm not really into MMOs and there are many reasons. The autoscaling of enemies is even worse than in solo TES for most of them. All the instances and lack of a really truly persistent world that all players share - boring to me.

And on another note I think Zenimaz and Bethesda are kidding themselves with the thought that every player wants to be emporer or savior of the world. I'd love one of their installments to just be more sandbox. But here again a fight for the throne is the end goal. yawn.

[ediit] and regarding this:
Yeah - I'm not responsible for your reactions. Saying 'We' is just a figure of speech - why would you even care about that part? Why can't it be that by me saying we I'm throwing my self in with them and associating with them - and not that I'm their spokesman?

Single player. You can't use the same balance for a single player as you need for an MMO. It matters little that you mod Skyrim to make leveling slower, etc, etc. It's still a single player game. Single player games do not work like multiplayer ones.


Because it's an MMO. What's the point of an MMO if party dynamics have little importance? You might as well just open up a chatroom while playing Skyrim by yourself. Not all MMOs require partying, hell you can solo for a good amount of time in WoW, you can also solo fairly easily for a good long while as a Beastmaster or a Red Mage in Final Fantasy XI.


Mechanics influence play style. You can't have a play style without mechanics. This is not a "chicken or the egg" scenario, you literally cannot create play styles, and therefore balance, without mechanics.


Final Fantasy Tactics, Final Fantasy XI and Disgaea. FFT and Disgaea are both StratRPGs, meaning they are a meld of RTS and RPG.

All three games had hard classes (Knight, Warrior, Black Mage, etc) but you could freely change your class when you wanted to (outside of combat) as well as having a "sub-job," meaning you could be a White Mage/Black Mage. This meant you were primarily a Healer but you had access to offensive spells and gained some sort of smaller bonus. Disgaea had a somewhat complex system that allowed characters to retain skills from classes they used to be, i.e. if you were a Warrior and wanted to switch to a Mage, you could retain some Warrior skills and bonuses provided you met some requirements. Also Disgaea featured the ability to freely equip any weapon style you wanted, however each weapon was more or less effective (i.e. learned weapon skills faster/slower) based on your current class.


Enemies don't autoscale in MMOs.


"People" was just a figure of speech yet you cared about it. We've been over this part. Your implications when speaking about "we," with such things as "why don't you start a poll" is what I had pointed out. As in "we are right," or "we" meant only "real TES fans."

I think, one advantage of a class-based system is that it encourages to play in a group. Skyrim is specifically designed to let you manage every encounter on your own, a one-handed warrior with restoration spells is completely self-sufficient. Furthermore, with the introduction of combined abilites (like oil + fire), you could simply pick those skills yourself, rendering all synergy pointless.

This too.

As I have said, Skyrim (as well as TES as a whole) has no "tier" system for skills.

True. But the class we chose once affected what we could equip. Glad they got away from that. I always thought it was unrealistic.

I do wish we had a similar system to what Skyrim offers. But I think that this is one of those things that are etched in stone. Advancement system, be it skill or level-based, is a fundamental aspect of an MMO and is usually locked in early on, with the rest of the game wrapped around it. So as much as we may want a different system, I think we should accept that we're likely stuck with the one announced.

But it limits soloing that much. I just disagree that the only real appeal of MMO is to do raiding parties. There is much more that could be done with the genre but isn't.

Perhaps if there were incentives to soloing and incentives to partying. I'm all for limits on the system - I do consider the vanilla skill system to be imbalanced even for solo play (not so bad with mods - which do matter). But classing is too limiting.

yuck the more I think about it the more I dislike this game without even loading it up.

Again, WoW offers quite a lot of solo play, regardless of class.

There's just too much heat in this thread for me to allow it to continue to remain open. This topic seems like something that people are going to want to talk about, but I do ask that we let at least a day to go by (and more importantly - everyone to take a nice, cleansing breath and simmer down) before creating a new thread.

There are going to be people of all manner of thoughts and feelings about this game. These differences need to be conducted in a manner that is civil and does not resort to personal attacks or call-outs. As that is against the rules.

Everyone gets to have an opinion on this. You all need to be respectful and courteous in the manner in which you choose to disagree with any member of this forum. There are no excuses for behaving otherwise.