It's quite funny how you say "I can speak well enough" yet I can't do the same. Love double standards and hypocrites.

There's a few threads and forum goers are fine with having set classes. I mean your entire first argument is killed by this:



Doesn't care, will be happy anyway. Seems they don't have to have TES skill set up, huh?

Fan boy And the fact that you say "I can't imagine it and it has not been done so it cannot and will not be done," as what I am saying, because it's pretty clear you have no concept of what I have been saying.

Lore is what matters most. Why? Because it's a "spin-off" MMO, it can alter the gameplay how it wishes. Or do you believe that other series "spin-off" games play exactly like the "main series" games? Because if you believe that, you're amazingly wrong.

TES still uses Tolkien concepts, sorry to burst your bubble.




ZMONline doesn't want to please fans... that's [censored] hilarious.

No sir you are mistaken - I don't care if you speak for others - what I was pointing out was that you literally did the same thing right before you said I didn't have the ability to do that. Now you attempt to turn this around by pointing at this illustration as me taking a stance that you took.

My entire argument is not destroyed by one post. That you think it is - betrays wishful thinking. Take a survey - are most threads for or against classes over skills? Create a poll thread if you really want to find out and maybe try your hand at seeing how the other guy actually thinks.

It is hard for any fantasy game to not have some influence traced back to Tolkien since he stole from just about all European myth in constructing his flattened take on myth and lore. But that again does not defeat the argument that TES was a departure from the D&D classes based on Tolkien characters as the only possible way to balance a game position. Sure any game that has a goblin or orc could be seen as having Tolkien concepts - not the point.

You are right though it is a spin off and you are most likely going to get all that you want in all its MMO sameness. And as this is the case why are you attacking and arguing the point?

Laugh as much as you want, but if they really wanted to please the fans, they would try harder, they did not say that it's impossible to make a mmo working like the past TES games, they said it was "hard", Really? That doesn't matter if it's hard, that's what they should've done, not pick an easy path to make things easy, as a cost of disappointment of many fans of the series, that's all i have to say, i did not expect this from zenimax, but that is what they did.

We don't want to play pre-determined classes in a TES game, that's for sure.

That's what makes TES, well, TES, the ability to be whatever you want, without classes dictating your options.

Just because one dev didn't get it right doesn't mean it cannot be done at all.

I'll be interested to see how a classless system works out in The Secret World, due to be released next month.

You do realize I said "people," right? "People" can mean 2, 345, 8478576493 or everyone in the world. Apparently you think I meant everyone in the world, which again, means you did not get what was actually being said. This is how the conversation went, and this is how you are floundering:

Nell: How I want to play. (This implies that there may or may not be people who want to play as predetermined classes, because of the emphasis on "I" and then 'want to play.)
Eric: Implying people don't like to play pre-determined classes. (Pointing out said implication.)
Psymon: Correct, we don't. ("We" is an attempt to speak for everyone. It is not as general a term as "people," because in the case you are trying to infer that "we" means all of TES fans, which you are continually trying to support with your ridiculous 'let's take an online poll' angle. With said angle you are, again ridiculously, believing that if your poll results show favorably to your side that it now somehow equates to "all" TES fans don't like pre-determined classes. Learn how to debate and understand conversation.)


I'm sorry, can you please tell me if polls here on Bethesda are IP restricted or not? Because if not, let me just go sign up for a new account and vote on both of them. Online polls having merit:


TES still use archetypes, archetypes are classes. Please learn something about something, especially game design. Nice irrelevant first sentence by the way.


What point exactly am I "attacking?"


Should I go down the list of things that have been removed from TES games because they were "too hard" or the way to do it would have been more difficult than it is worth? I can start with Skyrim if you like.


Nell, you don't speak for everyone. Myself and Vixxen, we, are perfectly fine with a pre-set class system as long as we can play TES with our friends.

It is pointless to debate you. Even if someone wins everyone loses for having to go through it.

All the best

Guess it's not pointless to get the last word in, huh?

I would be very pleased to know, since i did not play Skyrim, when do you start? /Sarcasm off.
Now let's see what they've keeped in TES:O,
-The lore
-The title
-eerm, Skooma is still in, right?
Nothing else.

People who put more points into combat = cant get strong armour

People who put more points into crafting (which make strong armour = good defence against people with high combat points

Then they help each other out and bring the community together

DONE

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that you had the design doc for the game. Because, apparently, a what was it... 19 pages? A 19 page article clearly covers everything.


Except... y'know, not.

So you spend all your time in the Skyrim forums [censored]ing about things that were removed from TES, condemning Skyrim, Bethesda, and anyone who likes it in the process, but now you are defending things that were removed from TES for TES:O, condemning anyone who doesn't like it in the process??

Didn't the other thread get locked because, again, you made things personal? Let's rehash how I have actually acted and said in regards to Skyrim and TESO, shall we?

I've said I've disliked what Skyrim has done.

I've never condemned Bethesda, ever, because even if I don't agree with the design decisions they have made I know just how hard the design process is and respect them for all their work, Skyrim included. One does not have to "like" something to respect it.

I've never condemned anyone who disagreed with me either, ever.

And perhaps you haven't caught on to the distinction made between what's called the "main series" and a "spin-off." TES I - V is the main series while TESO is this magical thing called a "spin-off." A "spin-off" can, and often does, change core gameplay or even out and out becomes a whole new genre. "Spin-offs," while changing core gameplay, can however still remain "tie-ins" to the "main series" due to lore and story, which is what TESO is doing.

TESO is not part of the "main series" anymore than Final Fantasy Tactics is not part of the "main series" that is Final Fantasy I - XIV.

Learn. Your. Game. Industry. History.

First, let's all agree that a skill based system is essentially a class based system as every skill combo in the end becomes its own class. Now, the scenario you describe is only an imbalance if you define balance as "all 'classes' should be able to take down any other 'class' with equal prowess". Not only is this immersion breaking as hell, but detrimental to the gameplay. Yes, while a jack-of-all-trade "demigod" that your scenario describes is a mighty foe, it's important to note that his power growth is much slower, so you're only likely to meet him near end game, and every player can only do a finite amount things in a finite time interval regardless of combat system. So, in the end, it doesn't matter how all-round you are, you're still "specializing" in that time interval. In this scenario, team dynamics shine as you all must contribute in the fight against the "demigod". Pound him with magic and arrows while he's in melee, kite when he's in heavy armor. Support your allies.
Suppose there are then multiple "demigods" teaming up against you. Same strategy essentially applies. In fact, it asymptotically approaches a numbers game as the groups get larger.
The Uomo universale of MMOs is not the devilspawn you make it out to be.

PvE: Variety. Against that particular build, quick and ranged creatures can easily outmaneuver you, since your heavy armor weighs you down, and dodge your magic as all attacks take time to "connect", but still leaves them vulnerable to similar builds. Alternatively, NPC with spear, light armor, spell reflection. This counter build, while weak against e.g. arrows or the stray hammer blow to the face when it made a mistake, has good enough range to poke you to death while remaining outside yours and the spell reflection will seriously make you reconsider using magic. Given enough variety, balance is automatically achieved. Hell, a single restoration, illusion, short blade NPC build can kill you. Buff up with reflect spell, paralyze and stab. Just watch out for arrows.

PvP: Pros and cons of skills. Or in other words, variety. Just not predetermined. The beauty of the skill based system is that you have a wider "class" variety. Thus, while every "class" is good against some, bad against others, if you team up to cover your weaknesses, you've achieved "balance". This makes sense, as no one worth his brain would go up against his "anticlass" without preparations. And yes, even the crafting system has its limits on the amount of support it can provide. This isn't Skyrim/Morrowind where you can pause the game and keep chugging potions.

Same principles above applies here. And for added suspense, make sure that the "class name" is hidden, if there is one. You'll never know what aces they have up in their sleeves.

I can easily see a tick-box system work, where you chose the preferred levels for preferred skills (and attributes if included). It's easy to use and makes sense. If you apply for a job, don't mention your skills and instead only mention that you're an engineer, then clearly the employer will have trouble determining if you're the person for the job.

Just because others devs can't get a WoW clone right doesn't mean this developer can't.

Section one: You're strictly talking about PvP. You're also making zero mention of what we have seen in TES games; Perks, Poitions, Enchantments, etc, etc. Those, in the TES series, have had a major, major influence on Skill based character builds. Potentially even more so than hard class games. Not to mention how, in a skill based system like TES, for an MMO a few particular builds could render many others obsolete. A multiskilled Destruction/Heavy Armor/Restoration could make a pure Restoration player useless.

Section two: Again you're not touching on things like Perks. Remember, we can make Heavy Armor completely weightless and thus not slow us down.

Section three: Doesn't actually answer the posed question.

Section four: Yes, you've just described the cluttered and complicated searching interface I talked about. It's not a space or a speed saver in the least. Your job anology is flawed because if resumes pour in with a header like so:

Engineer
Engineer
Doctor
Artist
Engineer
Artist
Lawyer
Engineer

And the company is looking for engineers, they obviously know quite easily what resumes to trash. Having a player have to go through something like this:

Check Box for Skill, Then Set Level Desired:

[ ] Smithing [Slide Rule]
[ ] Stealth [Slide Rule]
[ ] Speechcraft [Slide Rule]
[ ] One-Handed [Slide Rule]
[ ] Two-Handed [Slide Rule]
[ ] Light Armor [Slide Rule]
[ ] Heavy Armor [Slide Rule]
[ ] Lockpicking [Slide Rule]
[ ] Pickpocket [Slide Rule]
[ ] Restoration [Slide Rule]
[ ] Conjuration [Slide Rule]
[ ] Alteration [Slide Rule]
[ ] Destruction [Slide Rule]
[ ] Alchemy [Slide Rule]
[ ] Enchanting [Slide Rule]

Is an unnecessarily long list for a search menu. And we haven't even included character level or race.

^ Nah, that's not condescending at all.

And I understand that it's a "spinoff", but that doesn't mean I can't look for gameplay dynamics that more closely resemble TES, than WAR. So yes, I am disappointed this particular game seems to be taking the approach that it is, that combines neither MMO dynamics or TES dynamics that I enjoy.

I will check it out, as I like MMO's and I like TES, but I don't expect it to deliver for me.

You know, how Fallout fans were disappointed with the direction that Fallout 3 took?

Condescending =/= condemning.

Never said you can't look for them. I simply laid out the fairly flat logic that as a spin-off, what you're looking for doesn't have to be there in the first place. Also, you know a whopping 19 pages worth of fairly vague information. You have zero idea if they will reveal that TESO does include things you did like in TES.

Yes, well aware how Fallout fans reacted to Fallout 3.

I'm also well aware of how Metroid fans reacted to Metroid Prime when they heard it was going to be a FPS.

They were promptly shut up.

Wow you really are something.

This why engaging with you is pointless. Logic without the ability to get along with others and a need to shut them up. Great combo.

I'm sorry, didn't you leave? Had to get another last word in?

I didn't mention perks, potions and the like since they, like skills, in essence help form several "subclasses". The same approach applies WLOG. Everyone is limited in some way, whether by skills, time or both.
Pure restoration players are most certainly not useless. Because they're specializing more, they'll have much more powerful spells at their disposal than the multiskilled class, with better specialized perks too if the perk numbers are limited. Fortify, absorb health, absorb skill/attribute. They're even more valuable in groups.
It's also worth noting that if you plan on doing combat, have at least one skill with direct or indirect offensive capabilities. Hence, why 100% Mercantile in its current form isn't suited for combat, directly. But it has far better uses outside of combat.

Absorb/Drain/Damage strength spells, burden poisons, need I go on?

It does actually, if at least indirectly. If PvE and PvP is balanced as mentioned previously, then every "class" will have pros and cons to different "classes" and monsters.

The point I'm trying to make here, is that there are multiple types of engineers. Computer engineer, bioengineer, mechanical engineer... the list goes on. Each engineer is specialized in a "field" or skills if you will. Merely giving engineer to an employer isn't helping.

I have a feeling this is more of a preference issue. I personally prefer to use this system, it gives me more control than merely giving a class does.

Section one: However remember, in Skyrim you can completely max out Restoration and Heavy Armor. There is no real "pure" speccing in Skyrim due to the fact that there is no tier system in place. As I said before, this isn't Final Fantasy Tactics or Final Fantasy XI. In those games if I pure spec a White Mage I can, and will, have better healing spells than someone who specs Red Mage or makes White Mage their sub-job. Skyrim, perhaps less so for the majority of previous TES games, does not feature that. With that said, a Restoration/Heavy Armor could take far more damage than a Restoration/Destruction (i.e. full Mage) and still be as good a healer as the full Mage.

Section two: All of those can be countered by Enchantments.

Section three: You can't balance PvE and PvP in the same fashion though.

Section four: You're broadening in an area you previously didn't broaden. Also, all of those are specific job titles, "classes" if you will, and still fits in to what I have said because again, if the company is looking for a "computer engineer," if the job title at the top does not say "computer engineer" it will be tossed.

Section five: It is preference. A lot of people like "easy."

At least you acknowledge your condescending behavior and attitude.

But hey, using your Metroid example, I guess you should just shut up about Skyrim, right? I mean, it was a huge success, both commercially and critically and all. Nice to know I won't have to read you complaining about Skyrim incessantly in the Skyrim forums anymore!!!

Sarcasm aside, it's obvious there's no point in talking to you, since you admittedly have a condescending attitude about the whole thing.

Haven't been condescending to Da Nang at all, and we're currently in a debate where they don't agree with me.

Maybe it's because they didn't use a lot of "we don't like it," or tell people to leave.

Class based systems are the most imbalanced why to lvl up, its next to impossible to have a mage and a archer at say lvl 20 be equal and same goes with all other classes there will always be imbalance its a fact even when following the exact skill tree for your class. If skills could be lvled up to your choosing then the only imbalance there would be is your own inability to pick what would be best for you not what you have been made to pick based of class. Eric you seem to be the only one on this thread who just dose not get it yet. Were you dropped on your head at birth I wounder.