What's with all of the hype and facination? : Othor Games

» Mon May 14, 2012 8:36 pm

But they would have been able to adjust it. I mean, 6 years of communicating with fans and creating the best damn TES MMO they could, or 1 year of saying "here's what we've been making for the last 5 years! It's too late to change anything!"

I know which one I'd pick.

After watching http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4q1dgn_C0AU, you might reconsider.

» Mon May 14, 2012 7:36 pm

After watching http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4q1dgn_C0AU, you might reconsider.

I'm kind of burned out on university lectures after today. Mind telling me which part to fast forward to?

» Tue May 15, 2012 4:14 am

I'm kind of burned out on university lectures after today. Mind telling me which part to fast forward to? :smile:

I think he gets to the point at around http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4q1dgn_C0AU&feature=player_detailpage#t=930s, but I don't want to spoil the talk for you by trying to convince you of ZOS' marketing strategy. It's a good talk on its own.

What it boils down to is: More choice or influence over an outcome doesn't automatically make us happier. We are constantly brooding whether we should have chosen differently. When we don't have that amount of choice, it's easier to accept the results and gain a higher level of happiness. I thought this could be applied to our influence on TESO's development as well.

» Tue May 15, 2012 5:08 am

I'd rather be miserable and have choice.

It is human nature after all, to suffer.

» Tue May 15, 2012 12:02 am

No, that's your nature. Please don't speak for me.

» Tue May 15, 2012 2:43 am

So two thirds of their audience don't use mods. OP makes it sound like TESO won't be Elder Scrolls to him because of no mods or high res texture packs. I guess two thirds of their audience aren't play Elder Scrolls.

To him.

To him, if there are no mods, it's not TES. Thats his opinion, and he can say what he wants about it. I agree with him somewhat, I would find TES without mods quite boring after 200 hours or so.

» Mon May 14, 2012 4:58 pm

No, that's your nature. Please don't speak for me.

What is with people on this here forum? Weird it is that no one is allowed to make general statements without someone taking it like their personal self is being specified.

Why ever would I speak for you? In fact I stated my preference, but now that you had to mention it Is not this sensitivity somewhat like suffering?

1st Noble truth: life is suffering ... a concept that has been around about 2600 years.

Joyful participation in the sorrows of the world.

» Mon May 14, 2012 11:54 pm

i wish you were wrong but i feel youre going to be right

I really wish im wrong. We'll see how it goes.

» Tue May 15, 2012 12:45 am

You can't just do whatever the marketing department tells you and bring out a TES game that bears only a superficial resemblance to other games in the series and NOT expect a backlash.

This. Apparently it seems this is exactly what they have done.
I hope they have anticipated this sort of reaction and better be bloody ready to answer very difficult questions when the fans start questioning.

The Elder Scrolls series is NOT just any 2-bit franchise that you can just "MMO'rified", fail it, and get away with.

» Mon May 14, 2012 4:33 pm

1) Done by a studio whom the fans had no contact with since 2007,...

This.

Ditto. I've been saying this to people in another thread here.

...they should have been gathering feedback from the fans instead of shutting themselves in for five years.

I mean just look at Wasteland 2. They raised a million bucks in two days through donations, and the community plays a *central* role in game development from the very beginning.....

I guess I know how that other game will turn out huh? Anyway, Phyber raised some good points. Between their lack of experience, bad marketing (and/or a lack thereof) and no fan input, it's a recipe for disaster.

Regards,
Eno Hlaalu

» Tue May 15, 2012 8:45 am

I'd rather be miserable and have choice.

It is human nature after all, to suffer.

What makes you think you'd have any choice in their design decisions? Lol Besides its highly likely that it would've been made worse with more people throwing in their opinions. Not only that but what makes you think youhave the right to dictate to someone how they make their product?

» Mon May 14, 2012 8:38 pm

Lots of people here think they are the best than developer, designers , and so on. I wonder why are they here and not working in the best and more succesful gaming company then.... :shrug:

» Tue May 15, 2012 8:55 am

What makes you think you'd have any choice in their design decisions? Lol Besides its highly likely that it would've been made worse with more people throwing in their opinions. Not only that but what makes you think youhave the right to dictate to someone how they make their product?

If the company doesn't value fan feedback, their product will most likely fail.

Regards,
Eno Hlaalu

» Tue May 15, 2012 8:29 am

What makes you think you'd have any choice in their design decisions? Lol Besides its highly likely that it would've been made worse with more people throwing in their opinions. Not only that but what makes you think youhave the right to dictate to someone how they make their product?

They must first understand WHO they are making the product for.
Calling it "Elder Scrolls Online" obviously means this is meant for fans of the series, otherwise why call it that then?

I give you this very good example of another game where a completely different studio oversees a game project
where the franchise was not originally created by them: Deus Ex Human Revolution by Eidos Montreal. (The original was done by Ion Storm)

Take a look at this video of the Making of Deus Ex Human Revolution.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zNPJPPqGGc

Skip to 5:52 where Mr Stephone D'Astous emphasizes:

"I think that the fanbase is so active and so passionate. They're very protective of their favourite game. We exchanged on the forums and
the blogs We are always listening to our fans, we want to do a game that will please them, and that will bring new fans to the franchise".

LOOK AT THIS AMOUNT OF DEDICATION!!
This is a game studio that is doing a game that was not originally done by them, and they actually reach out to the fans first!
And he's not lying. They have developers actually combing forums and actually asking what fans want to see in Deus Ex 3

Take a look at this Actual Thread in the Cyberpunk Review back in 2008, where one of the developer René actually seek fans opinion to see what they
want to see in Deus Ex 3!! Her actual post starts at Page 3. (Remember Deus Ex 3 released in 2011, and they are already talking to fans since 2008)
http://www.cyberpunkreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=501

As a result of all this dedication, what happened to Deus Ex 3?
IT REVITALIZED THE FRANCHISE. It PROVED to the original fans that they are DEAD SERIOUS in the game.
It brought NEW FANS to the franchise, and even though it did not get GOTY, its sales were pretty darn good.

If Eidos-Montreal can do this, WHY CAN'T ZENIMAX ONLINE DO THIS?

» Mon May 14, 2012 7:20 pm

If the company doesn't value fan feedback, their product will most likely fail.

Regards,
Eno Hlaalu

Right but where do you draw the line? Not all feedback is equally good, etc.

» Tue May 15, 2012 3:08 am

What makes you think you'd have any choice in their design decisions? Lol Besides its highly likely that it would've been made worse with more people throwing in their opinions. Not only that but what makes you think youhave the right to dictate to someone how they make their product?

My post was a reply to Faulgor - specifically this post (the one directly before the post I made).

I think he gets to the point at around http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4q1dgn_C0AU&feature=player_detailpage#t=930s, but I don't want to spoil the talk for you by trying to convince you of ZOS' marketing strategy. It's a good talk on its own.

What it boils down to is: More choice or influence over an outcome doesn't automatically make us happier. We are constantly brooding whether we should have chosen differently. When we don't have that amount of choice, it's easier to accept the results and gain a higher level of happiness. I thought this could be applied to our influence on TESO's development as well.

Perhaps in that context your response is a bit much?

Dictate?

» Mon May 14, 2012 6:14 pm

Lots of caps lock Oi. Anyways, its ok for them to seek fan feedback etc. if they want to, but it doesnt necessarily mean they will listen to all of it and it doesn't mean that all of the fans will agree w ith each other on every point.

» Tue May 15, 2012 2:25 am

My post was a reply to Faulgor - specifically this post (the one directly before the post I made).

Perhaps in that context your response is a bit much?

Dictate?

Nah not at all.

» Tue May 15, 2012 5:27 am

This. Apparently it seems this is exactly what they have done. I hope they have anticipated this sort of reaction and better be bloody ready to answer very difficult questions when the fans start questioning. The Elder Scrolls series is NOT just any 2-bit franchise that you can just "MMO'rified", fail it, and get away with.

I think that you are on to something here. A very good example could be EA/Bioware and Dragon Age 2. They claimed that they designed the game based upon fan feedback when in fact the game didn't do so well. So, how could they have consulted the fans? They certainly didn't back it up with any proof. The proof was that thirty days following the games release they had it on sale for 50% off. I remember it well, because I was stupid enough to have had pre-ordered it. Played one game and it went into the trash. It had nothing to do with Dragon Age Origins save for a few references now and then. After several months went by they finally admitted that they had wrong. Now, whether or not they learned their lesson is another story.

» Tue May 15, 2012 2:09 am

I think that you are on to something here. A very good example could be EA/Bioware and Dragon Age 2. They claimed that they designed the game based upon fan feedback when in fact the game didn't do so well. So, how could they have consulted the fans? They certainly didn't back it up with any proof. The proof was that thirty days following the games release they had it on sale for 50% off. I remember it well, because I was stupid enough to have had pre-ordered it. Played one game and it went into the trash. It had nothing to do with Dragon Age Origins save for a few references now and then. After several months went by they finally admitted that they had wrong. Now, whether or not they learned their lesson is another story.

With reference to my earlier post about Deus Ex 3, i think more developers should follow Eidos-Montreal's example.
They really MEAN it when they say they consult fans, and all their hard work paid off in the end.

Hopefully Bioware learnt their lesson. DA2 almost killed the DA franchise. I think they thought fans would lap up anything DA.

I hope im wrong on this, but so far what Zenimax Online is doing feels almost the same.
They think Elder Scrolls fans will lap it up just because they slap an Elder Scrolls label to it.

We Fans have a RIGHT to be protective of the games that we treasure and love. Don't crap on our love man.

» Mon May 14, 2012 8:30 pm

If the company doesn't value fan feedback, their product will most likely fail.

Regards,
Eno Hlaalu

Again, since people like you seem to gloss over this every time I post it:

"A work of art is the unique result of a unique temperament. Its beauty comes from the fact that the author is what he is. It has nothing to do with the fact that other people want what they want. Indeed, the moment that an artist takes notice of what other people want, and tries to supply the demand, he ceases to be an artist, and becomes a dull or an amusing craftsman, an honest or a dishonest tradesman."
-Oscar Wilde

» Mon May 14, 2012 4:20 pm

Again, since people like you seem to gloss over this every time I post it:

"A work of art is the unique result of a unique temperament. Its beauty comes from the fact that the author is what he is. It has nothing to do with the fact that other people want what they want. Indeed, the moment that an artist takes notice of what other people want, and tries to supply the demand, he ceases to be an artist, and becomes a dull or an amusing craftsman, an honest or a dishonest tradesman."
-Oscar Wilde

Its funny you quoted Oscar Wilde.

This is what happened to him in the end:

Quoted from Wikipedia:
"He died destitute in Paris at the age of forty-six."

» Tue May 15, 2012 3:14 am

Lol.

» Mon May 14, 2012 6:54 pm

I give you this very good example of another game where a completely different studio oversees a game project
where the franchise was not originally created by them: Deus Ex Human Revolution by Eidos Montreal. (The original was done by Ion Storm)

Take a look at this video of the Making of Deus Ex Human Revolution.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zNPJPPqGGc

Skip to 5:52 where Mr Stephone D'Astous emphasizes:

"I think that the fanbase is so active and so passionate. They're very protective of their favourite game. We exchanged on the forums and
the blogs We are always listening to our fans, we want to do a game that will please them, and that will bring new fans to the franchise".

That's a proper example and guess what, the game was a critical success. I also love the way InXile is managing feedback at their forums, very simple.

http://wasteland.inxile-entertainment.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=7&sid=4f8abf9b822659dca806bae1346f485c
Suggestions for what Wasteland 2 should or could include.
http://wasteland.inxile-entertainment.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=8&sid=4f8abf9b822659dca806bae1346f485c
What needs to be avoided in the sequel?

If the company doesn't value fan feedback, their product will most likely fail.

Right but where do you draw the line? Not all feedback is equally good, etc.

How they'll manage feedback is up to the developers themselves. But ignoring it is a recipe for disaster, especially amid todays heavily saturated market. Few examples off the top of my head

Guild Wars 2 Feedback portal
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Feedback:Guild_Wars_2_suggestions

Wasteland 2 @ Google moderator
http://www.google.com/moderator/#16/e=1f7176http://www.google.com/moderator/#16/e=1f7176

Regards,
Eno Hlaalu

» Mon May 14, 2012 5:36 pm

Excellent examples Eno.
Zenimax Online should be learning from them instead of hiding in the shadows for 5 years and doing a sudden "Jack in the Box".

The way i see it, i'll really respect them if they come out and craft a very good Skyrim DLC and PROVE to the fans that the franchise is in good hands.

Thats all there is to it. Just make us a Skyrim DLC made SOLELY by Zenimax Online.