crap you got me there i fall to your awsomeness
(bow)

I prefer that people do not deify me.

exactly.

I hope Bethesda corrects this mistake when they release Fallout 4 because I know there going to end up making it an open world FPS with no RPG elements, I feel their series is popular enough and they should narrow their mainstream appeal while keeping the mainstream fans who joined up by easing them into a RPG instead of a shooter.

Stop sniping at each other please, including the use of all caps.

The OP is entitled to his opinion, even if it's one that has been thrashed out before. If he's not being rude and abiding by forum rules, your responses, even if you disagree, should keep the same standards.

Alternatively, if you are kind of bored with a particular thread/topic, you don't need to post in it. There is always that option.

Because that is what depth is all...

... [censored], I don't even have to be sarcastic, people would take it seriously...

Sorry if others have posted a similar topic, I just want to get my thoughts out there and if enough people point out these issues the higher the chance Bethesda will take notice and resolve these issues in their next installment.

I entirely agree.. Quests should be like a journal where it says things and you have to use your instincts to get through a quest.. Such as Plane scape Tournament.. I also believe dark brotherhood quests should be like the game hitman: blood money.. So you don't just go in there and kill some guy and that's it.. In hitman you need disguises, take out guards.. distractions.. and best of all you can be creative with the kills.. Oblivion had a better dark brotherhood by far.. Such as the Bruma quest where there are guards inside the house of the guy you can kill if you want drop a deer head on.. Also I am playing on master mode... a lot of the time I think it is so easy I check to make sure its still on master mode and not like novice.. Dark Souls and Shadow of the colossus were much more hardcoe RPG's.. Bosses were bigger, less people to trade with (Liked fallout 3 because of this), less people in general.. If you ever played those 2 games.. you have that feeling like you are alone, and you just want somebody to help you.. NPC or anything.. That brings me to my next point.. Make the game have like 9 companions.. I forgot the number of races there are in the game but add in one for every race.. Give more controllable options.. such as use restoration to heal me.. Only use 2 handed weapons and such..

I want to spend a hour on every quest.. I usually spend like 10 minutes.. Since I am quite strong and everybody else is weak..

Skyrim needs Morrowind touch spell

I AGREE!

I agree with most of your points. Yes, Skyrim is too simplified to just ignore the changes and move on. I did play the [censored] out of it and I like it, but I like it considerably less than the previous games.

I agree with the OP, yet I don't see Beth doing the same. With each new game they create, they approach it with the mindset of "how can we make even more players play this game, than our last game?".

I believe Beth will continue to cater to the tastes of new players, they will keep simplifying things, they will keep shifting their focus to more popular gameplay styles (that is where the money is) and the margins between catering to the old styles of the elder scrolls compared to the new styles will only keep getting larger.

It is hard to imagine Beth would just shift gears completely and back track a game to Morrowind style depth of story and interaction.

Which is a terrible shame because their games have so much potential but they can't quite meet it.

Not sure if they cannot, devs did release video footage of many mods that they created on their own, many of them drastically altering the vanilla state of Skyrim upon release.

I feel it falls more into their motivation rather than capacity. Those who prefer the old style elder scrolls would most likely love to return Skyrim to the old ways, yet they are given their quota and objectives to reach by those who are less concerned about the feel of Skyrim and more concerned about the revenue it will generate.

Okay then, a question about what is depth.

How would, for example, the inclusion of attributes change ANYTHING?
You see, RPGs are about selecting a couple of thins that you improve, so you become better at said things. Skyrim does it, Morrowind does it, Mass Effect does it, every RPG does this, this is how stats work. So how is including another variable adds to the "depth", how does this make the game challenging, how does this make you think, how is this smarter, how is this "better"? how is raising strength that raises your weapon skill that raises your damage better than just raising you weapon skill to raise your damage or raising the damage directly? Again, in all of these casses you raise a thing to be better at things, the difference is the number of hoops you have to go trough. And these hoops mean next to nothing, you raise the thing either way, you get better either way. Why does it matter if you have 1 or 2 numbers that tells you how good you are at one thing?
As I said, what you ask is "complexity for complexity's sake" and that's not depth, not even close.

And there's no difference where you do your choices, the beginning of the game or during the game. So because you cannot choose at the beginning you will always end up the same in Skyrim? Again, this doesn't add depth, at all. It doesn't even have any impact.

Similarly with the "handholding" or quest markers or free stuff, like Morrowind didn't had those? Morrowind didn't shower you with free magical items? They didn't tell you where the destination is? Not like Questmarkers remove "exploration", as you still need to get there, I cannot count how many times I had to figure out how to reach certain places that has been already marked, but a straight path was impossible.

But we need to go about how this is less and less like Morrowind, when if anything Skyrim is a lot more like Morrowind and Daggerfall than Oblivion ever was, but it doesn't seem to be obvious enough, maybe we need spears and giant bugs so it might be more obvious...

Tells how long a quest will take.. Lets say the quest was to infiltrate a boat with a man you need to kill.. If the only person on the boat was the guy you need to kill and he had 50 hp.. It would be a short quest.. Don't ya think

Oh boy. I think it's better if you said it's a poorly done RPG.

Yes i took that out at the last second realizing I was about to start a war.. I play good RPG's so to me its far from one.. Witcher 2 for example love a whole lot more..

How about I just link you to the search function?
Because you have asked that question many times now and have gotten many replies to it.
Short ones, long ones, some of high quality and detail.
Why should people continuously have to explain again that what was already explained quite well before the release of Skyrim?

Wait, Skyrim doesn't have health, what?
Because none of them were satisfactory, none of them were anything more than "just because".

Oh really, I might oversimplify them, but it ends up in that. Whenever I ask how is it any different than having a skill for it the answer is around "how it was done it the past" or "natural vs learned abilites", but in the end, nothing about how it makes it "deeper".
This is just about words, having high "strength" just sound better than having high "one-handed skill", or is it because looking at more numbers makes you feel smarter, I don't know.

Only really satisfactory answer I got that it connects the skills, but when I say this can be done without attributes by... just making skill categories, there's nothing else.

Oh and there are the accusations of how I apparently hate the attributes and why is the game better without them, when my argument is that the lack of them did not made anything worse...

Agreed. Skyrim's quests and puzzles really hold your hand and there is almost very little thought and strategy behind them. How come there aren't puzzles that really make you think. Puzzles that are a spectacle in themselves and a huge reward just by figuring them out. Most quests are just very straight forward and a lot of them are simple fetch quests with little thought and twists. I don't know where this game really challenges the player and makes them think independently instead of just holding their hand. Where is the sense of surprise in most dungeons. Most of the dungeons are light as day and they have lanterns and candles practically everywhere lighting your path. IMO most dungeons should be very dark and creepy and should be there for you to uncover, not the lanterns and candles.

As for armors condensing, it is a more of a bitter sweet thing, because Bethesda said that having armors condensed allowed them to have a greater number of armors in the game.

Attributes do change the experience drastically, in fact they change the entire scheme of character progression. Attributes affected which skills you will heavily invest in; for example if your character has high strength then that means you are more proficient at skills such as Blade, Blunt, and Hand to Hand so if your character begins with a high level of strength you would be much better off going for a melee build than a mage build. Another example would be if a character had a horrible personality rating but I raised my speechcraft up to 100 than your speechcraft will not be nearly as effective due to you low personality rating so you probably shouldn't have invested time leveling it up when you could be leveling a different skill that fits your character. Another thing having attributes allows is better role-playing. For example I want to play a mage but sadly my character isn't very bright so I'll give him a low intelligence rating to reflect that and that adds a greater challenge for him to become a mage; he'll have to conserve his magicka considerably and it will be difficult for him to learn complex spells. As my character levels up I increase his intelligence to reflect his progress in becoming a mage; not to mention the fact that Bethesda could also use intelligence in speech options similar to how they did it in Fallout 3. In Skyrim I can not reflect this character trait because when you level up all I can do is raise his magicka and say he is getting smarter and it would be impossible to add any sort of speech issue that reflects my characters intellect because Skyrim has no way in determining my characters intelligence. These attributes allows a level of character customization that is not available in Skyrim due to it's lack of attributes; so that means I can not give my character any advantages or disadvantages based on how I wish to play the character and frankly a perfect character is quite boring.

That's strange because I'm fairly certain that Morrowind had a much larger number of armor sets than Skyrim.