I love TES for the in-depth (in what some casuals would see as 'tedious') gameplay...

...but if those things that make an MMORPG a "real" RPG experience, are going to be 'trimmed' for better access to those who really shouldn't be playing this genre of game in the first place..., then why bother with this?

I guess for the sake of a direct question (without going wall o'text about my feelings on modern MMORPGs).....is TESO going to try to compete with WoW in the casual-friendly MMO market? or are they going to try to do something different?

To be honest... most of the people here are probably more in the "casual" camp, at least when it comes to MMOs. For me, casual has nothing to do with the amount of time you put it, its the obsessive skill tracking and number crunching and spreadsheets. I gladly claim my casual title if that's hardcoe.

Skyrim pretty much did cater to the casuals.

In my experience, most MMO's don't cater to casuals. Oh, they have options for the casual player- daily quests, tailorable gear that doesn't require instances, etc. But most of the work and detail goes into keeping the 'hardcoe' customer happy. They're the ones who fly through the content the fastest and exploit every weakness they can find in skill trees and gear stackability.

This is correct.

I'm curious... How do you define a casual gamer.

If you say someone who wants an easy button and wants everything handed to them, then you are wrong. That's the definition of a lazy player.

I am a casual player. I have limited time to devote to gameplay. I can only play thirty minutes to an hour at any given time before the pinched nerve in my back starts causing me trouble from sitting too long. As a casual player, I want to be able to jump in, make some tangible progress in my gameplay, or be able to do something to contribute to the in-game community in a meaningful way, and then log out. I don't want a lack of challenge, and I don't want to be led by the nose from point A to B to C. I just want to be able to reach Points A B and C in one session. I do not want to have to wait forever to be able to form a group to take on a raid that I really don't have time to devote to, either.

So in that sense, I really hopt TESO IS casual-friendly.

Just to clarify, I don't mind being directed to where content is. But I don't need a map pointer to do it. What I need is a questing system that tells you something like "Head North of town and off the road to your left you should see where scouts say they could just make out a bandit camp."

It doesn't have to appear on my map until I reach it. Then another quest could do something like, "The spiders-infested cave is north east of blablabla... you know, where you fought those bandits. So if I know where the town is and am smart enough to know the difference between north and south, and I know my left from my right, I can find the bandits without a big glowing arrow pointing the way... And if I found the bandits, I can find the cave where the spiders are.

I don't want to be trated like I am stupid. The game is going to be rated M. So I would like to be treated like i have a brain. Just don't waste my freaking time with mind-numbingly boring quests that run me all over the place.

I definitely hope not. I want a challenge. And I hate bringing up WoW, but countless times, when I used to play, people would say like "Oh dude why do you play that game, it's so difficult and confusing." Well really, in reality, if you pay attention and read things you won't be confused. I actually want to have good combat, not cilck this to hit.

Did you not play Skyrim lol?

Ayup. TESO will probably do the same, albeit in typical MMO format instead.

Sorry but you seem to think that Casual Players are generally lazy, bad and unable to learn.

This is not true at all.

Casuals just don't have the time to sit infront of a Game 4-5 hours a Day, for various reasons (Work, Family, Friends ect)

I'm sorry, but which Elder Scrolls was too "hardcoe" for "casual" players to invest in?

Even Morrowind was enough of a mass success to carry the company for quite some time on it's own. Hardy a niche game, and frankly I've never found any Elder Scrolls to be what I'd consider terribly complicated.

Just sayin'.

It's the 'casuals' that make the games a success. And many of these casuals become huge TES fans, such as myself

What's a casual gamer in terms of an MMO? Someone who hasn't played one? I am a hardcoe gamer but I mostly play single player games with occasional multiplayer. Not MMOs though. TESO is the only MMO to even get a flicker of interest from me. I don't like to be led by the nose though and the questing system(and quests) of Skyrim was probably one of the biggest disappointments in my recent gaming History. Same with the lack of depth in many of its mechanics and writing. I want a deep meaningful thought provoking story with interesting gameplay and quests that require me to think for awhile to solve them or complete them.

If you're on these forums, you aren't a casual gamer.

Correct, I agree.

However, those "options" is what sort of changes the culture on any particular server. (For example) Why bother socializing with everyone on your server, if that player can get all he needs from a cross-server LFG/LFR tool? What's the point of a PvP server, if everyone is on flying mounts being safe in the sky and only coming down to mine an Ore vein that you only have to hit once (instead of a few times to stall the player into a World PvP situation)?

Or what's the point of doing any content when there is a way to power-level to max cap, and that the majority of people (which according to one poster here are casual) are all at max cap and ready for end-game because they didn't want to bother with playing the RP parts of the MMORPG (which to me make up 90% of an MMO) and they wont bother with that content since all they have to do is stand in their city and wait wait for that LFG tool to queue in...meanwhile, the so-called "hardcoe" player (those that dedicate themselves to all aspects of the game) is in the middle of nowhere, looking for help on a group quest, but can't find anyone because the game dev designed a way to give those 'casuals' a way to the top and you are too beneath them to care...I mean, where is the community there?....What the point of those "options" for the hardcoes, when everything can get over-looked just to keep up with the jones' ?

...I could make more examples, but I'm not well versed in TESO's details yet...

See, just to set the record, I'm not slamming the "Casual" demographic. Nor am I looking for the super-uber-elite dungeons that only a handful of players can do. But there was this idea of living and breathing in a virtual world of fantasy, with elements of real life attached to it....that "RP" meant something in RPGing....by putting in those 'creature-comforts' does diminish that quality...

This is true. I am no casual and care much about the direction this entire Elder Scrolls Series of games is going. I can't stand it. I have more of a beef with Bethesda then i do Zenimax. If they wanna make an mmo fine. But, Dawnguard better show me that Beth hasn't forgotten how they came up in this business and i wanna see some improvement. Not just some [censored] werewolf perks and fire arrows and some lameass story about snow elves.

Excuse me post as i'm a little drunk atm..

I was. In November of 2011, I was looking for a game to play so that I wasn't playing Modern Warfare 3 24/7. I picked up Skyrim because I'd read some good reviews about it. I played it, I enjoyed it, I checked the forums to see if anyone could tell me if my PC could run it. I found out it couldn't, but I stayed on the forums.
A few months after joining the forums, I started roleplaying and then bought Oblivion. I'd now call TES my favorite gaming series, and haven't touched CoD or any other FPS since 2011.

But this thread isn't about my life story. It's about casuals. And I still believe that it's the 'casuals' that make this series thrive.

its the casuals they that tend too. they make sure your experience is as close to a FPS/Action/Adventure game as possible anymore.

Casuals don't make TES thrive. Casuals help the industry as a whole thrive, but TES is not a series that casuals keep running.

TES is largely maintained by "hardcoe" thanks to various reasons, mainly being the modding community and players already loyal to the RPG genre as a whole.

You might be drawn in as a casual, but TES is not a series that often keeps you just casual. The game itself is just not really built for what's considered "casual" play.

This can't be true, at least not in my experience. Skyrim (which is apparently 'dumbed down') made me care less about how amazing my weapons and armor are, and more about the stories and lives of my characters. No FPS/Action game has ever made me think that way.

Story? what story did the characters really have? "Hi im belethor, i work at the general goods store." From playing the game as much as i did there were very few who really had any story to them. And anyone who would like to contend with that go ahead. One liners are not stories pal im sorry to burst your bubble.

It would be hugely unrealistic if every character you spoke to vomitted their life's stories over you. Stories don't have to be long, boring accounts. They simply need to tell you enough for you to gain an understanding. Ever spoken to Sapphire? Camilla Valerius? Madanach? Balgruuf the Greater? Ulfric Stormcloak? Legate Rikke? General Tullius? Elisif? Maul? These are just off of the top of my head.

Again, we're off topic. We're not even on the Skyrim forums ...

120 hours to max level. That sounds massively casual. It will be so casual and hold your hand so much like all modern games. Dont worry

On the voicing sounds like they are wasting a lot of money on it. Hope you can /escape through all the boring dialog

I think a good working definition for a casual gamer is someone who dabbles in games and never really takes them seriously. This is merely my definition for it. Such a person would very rarely, if at all, actually search online for a game let alone join a forum. If you identify your self as a gamer then you are probably not a casual gamer. The problem with this term is that people never want to agree on what it means. There can be hardcoe CoD gamers or RPG gamers. If much of your down time is spent gaming in any medium you are not a casual gamer. There are exceptions like injuries and people strapped for time. If you love gaming and identify yourself as a gamer you are not casual. If you are 'stupid' and play a lot you are still not casual. If you are smart and play very little you could be a casual. Honestly the term is just stupid.

I'm on these forums, and I consider myself to be a casual gamer.

Casual does not mean lazy or stupid.